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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] APE: Equivalent?
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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 Content preview:  > > {ko'a jungau ko'e lo na'e jetnu > One person makes something
    known to another. What they make known is not true. > .i ru na'e jungau ra
    lo jetnu > One person does something having to do with the truth and the
   other person, which is not {jungau} but in some sense on the same scale as
    {jungau}. This is sufficiently vague that it is difficult to interpret, in
    my opinion. The version with {na} is easier to interpret, as it is simply
    that ko'a doesn't make ko'e know the truth, but might or might not make them
    know anything. [...] 
 
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--047d7bdc188c004ed204e6c67554
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>
> {ko'a jungau ko'e lo na'e jetnu
>
One person makes something known to another. What they make known is not
true.

> .i ru na'e jungau ra lo jetnu
>
 One person does something having to do with the truth and the other
person, which is not {jungau} but in some sense on the same scale as
{jungau}. This is sufficiently vague that it is difficult to interpret, in
my opinion. The version with {na} is easier to interpret, as it is simply
that ko'a doesn't make ko'e know the truth, but might or might not make
them know anything.

> .i ru bacru noda}
>
Technically, this could make someone know something, depending on the
situation. For example, when someone asks a leading question and you don't
answer, typically they infer that the "bad" answer is the truth.

> "He tells them something other than the truth. He does something other
> than tell them the truth. He says nothing."
>
> 1: What circumstances can be described by /only one/ of the first two
> bridi? (I'd like examples both ways, please.)
> 2: What circumstances can be described by /both/ of the first two bridi?
> 3: I think the last bridi is an example answer for 2. Why am I right or
> wrong?
>
A huge array of things can technically be implied by the second bridi with
{na'e} present, but because it's so vague, it is difficult to actually
point to a clean example where that's how you would want to describe the
situation. With {na} present instead, generally (I'm hesitant to say
"always") the first bridi is strictly stronger than the second. The strict
example where you have the second and not the first is when {ko'a jungau
ko'e no da}.

I would say the last bridi may or may not involve 2 and even if it involves
2 it may or may not involve 1. That is, not saying anything may or may not
lead to someone being able to infer information, and if it does, the
information may or may not be true.

> Also, if you like this kind of APE, let me know, I'll think of others. I
> imagine this will be easier than trying to think of new ways to get you to
> jbociska, like the earlier set was. ;)
>
I think this is a better format, since I think people that just want to
chat will mostly do it in IRC anyway.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<p dir=3D"ltr">{ko&#39;a jungau ko&#39;e lo na&#39;e jetnu</p></blockquote>=
<div>One person makes something known to another. What they make known is n=
ot true. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir=3D"ltr"> .i ru na&#39;e jungau ra lo jetnu</p></blockquote><div>=A0O=
ne person does something having to do with the truth and the other person, =
which is not {jungau} but in some sense on the same scale as {jungau}. This=
 is sufficiently vague that it is difficult to interpret, in my opinion. Th=
e version with {na} is easier to interpret, as it is simply that ko&#39;a d=
oesn&#39;t make ko&#39;e know the truth, but might or might not make them k=
now anything.<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr"> .i ru bacru noda}<br><=
/p></blockquote><div>Technically, this could make someone know something, d=
epending on the situation. For example, when someone asks a leading questio=
n and you don&#39;t answer, typically they infer that the &quot;bad&quot; a=
nswer is the truth.<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">
&quot;He tells them something other than the truth. He does something other=
 than tell them the truth. He says nothing.&quot;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">1: What circumstances can be described by /only one/ of the =
first two bridi? (I&#39;d like examples both ways, please.)<br>
2: What circumstances can be described by /both/ of the first two bridi?<br=
>
3: I think the last bridi is an example answer for 2. Why am I right or wro=
ng?<br></p></blockquote><div>A huge array of things can technically be impl=
ied by the second bridi with {na&#39;e} present, but because it&#39;s so va=
gue, it is difficult to actually point to a clean example where that&#39;s =
how you would want to describe the situation. With {na} present instead, ge=
nerally (I&#39;m hesitant to say &quot;always&quot;) the first bridi is str=
ictly stronger than the second. The strict example where you have the secon=
d and not the first is when {ko&#39;a jungau ko&#39;e no da}. <br>
<br></div><div>I would say the last bridi may or may not involve 2 and even=
 if it involves 2 it may or may not involve 1. That is, not saying anything=
 may or may not lead to someone being able to infer information, and if it =
does, the information may or may not be true.<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr"></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Also, if you like this kind of APE, let me know, I&#39;ll th=
ink of others. I imagine this will be easier than trying to think of new wa=
ys to get you to jbociska, like the earlier set was. ;)</p></blockquote>
<div>I think this is a better format, since I think people that just want t=
o chat will mostly do it in IRC anywa<font color=3D"#888888">y.<br><br></fo=
nt></div><div><font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">mi&#=
39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o</span><br>
</font> </div></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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