(arrghh.. this is getting far beyond beginner level)

= =A0=A0

=A0 But I claim that an implicit zo'e is NOT the same as an = explicit one (I will leave open the question of whether you can you can use= the value of "zi'o" for a "zo'e" =A0I don'= t think you can, because it creates an entirely new selbri, but I will =A0b= e willing to accept the opposite argument)... and I think I can get you to = agree. =A0Consider the following...

=A0 1) =A0 Some selbri have INFINITELY many numbe= red places (du and jutsi, notably) So are you asserting that if something d= oesn't have a higher order in a taxonomy, for example, that I have to a= dd an infinite number of "zi'o" to any sentence using "j= utsi" (since "zo'e" won't do?).

=A0 2) (weaker argument) =A0Besides numbered places, ev= ery selbri has a infinite number of unnumbered places, from BAI and all FIh= O SELBRI FEhU. (and reasonably, other sumti tcita such as tenses might be c= onsidered to be subsumed in here as well). =A0Do all these have implicit zo= 'e? =A0How about those that cannot make any sense? =A0(You can easily u= ndercut this argument by saying "implicit zo'e-dom only applies to= numbered places. =A0But then again, remember that you CAN say "mi bla= nu lo mlatu" and there "lo mlatu" is basically equivalent to= "do'e lo mlatu", but it is explicitly in a numbered (but unk= nown relationship) sumti place. =A0You can have an infinite number of these= , so this becomes argument #1).

=A0 If you accept either argument 1 or 2, you must conc= ede that either every sentence is "faulty" (your word), or that y= ou don't have to specify every place, and that doesn't invalidate b= ridi (so implicit zo'e must either be different than explicit zo'e,= or can also include values like "zi'o" or "no da")=

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa

On Mon, Nov 11, 201= 3 at 4:22 PM, selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:

On 11.11.2013 18:04, Micha= el Turniansky wrote:

On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 9:21 AM, selpa'i <m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:

If you say it has no x2, then I assume you would say that in:

=A0 =A0mi klama je sutra lo tricu

{lo tricu} actually fills klama3 and it fills neither klama2 nor sutra2. Ho= w can this be practically used? In which case it would mean:

=A0 No, I would not say that. =A0When I said " 'sutra je jipci'= ; doesn't
have an x2," I wasn't generalizing to _all_ broda JA brode. =A0If = you
SPECIFY something in that spot, as in your sentence, you ARE saying
the same as "mi klama gi'e sutra vau lo tricu" and you darn w= ell
better be using something that can fit both of the underlying x2
places (Which obviously "lo tricu" cannot) . =A0

But there is something in that place either way. It's either something = explicit, or it's {zo'e}.

What I was asserting was
that since the set of all things that are both se sutra and se jipci
is an empty set (as far as I can reasonably ascertain), it /de facto/
has no x2 place, not that it has no x2 place by nature of the
construction.

Okay. In other words, there is an x2, but nothing can sensibly fill it. The= moment you use it, the sentence becomes nonsense.

{.i sutra je jipci} is the same as {.i zo'e sutra je jipci zo'e}. I= t claims that something fills that x2.

=A0 Therefore as long as your sentence doesn't try to put something
into that place, there is no problem with asserting the sentence "mi sutra je jipci" is meaningful (I guess, to put it another way, I am asserting that an implicit "zo'e" (but probably not, pe'i= , an explicit
"zo'e") in fact doesn't have to be something that can rea= lly exist.

A {zo'e} always has some value that makes the bridi true. But whatever = the {zo'e} in {sutra je jipci}'s x2 is, it cannot make the bridi tr= ue (because no such value exists), so the whole predicate is faulty.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

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