Received: from mail-vc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:59089) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WdBn6-0001KW-PK for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:01:56 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f189.google.com with SMTP id il7sf402113vcb.6 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:01:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=zX2ZHtZIvajLkHIv2hgJ5z5P6QNnjOyZfOPPFX60kx8=; b=wqwVyoqRBlJSoBq1YzsKZgZF1RCXDp+4TSK3t7C8v0NZqPiQ3nGwHL2AZr1iOjqDA1 UUpbH4zsCHd4qaB3EErA3weBxmwwHr8REvCn193T2QJq7XDX0oqRSzE8KZUhID7GN734 ZJ5oxW42G48BPHj/ESRQJNIANLt76DUl7pdkkiUhaJ+HLZ4UeIgUyeJlOBF3u2bnIaij 4atnjnGIuY1vcFa6jzNZ3CqGAtAy8eOEtYaIXh4SrA/9ITkiJjotiRL+cbW6J75BfEoA wewvmzN8rGFSP4j7oDjgfFc/CJ0FpOkLgGwhGMfh1BJpZI26h7ckpArRpXZQv4bvRpWM EwGw== X-Received: by 10.50.118.37 with SMTP id kj5mr69798igb.1.1398315698537; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:01:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.88.99 with SMTP id bf3ls184769igb.12.canary; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:01:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.33.101 with SMTP id q5mr3671610igi.3.1398315697032; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-x22d.google.com (mail-ve0-x22d.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fj1si824924vdc.3.2014.04.23.22.01.37 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d; Received: by mail-ve0-f173.google.com with SMTP id oy12so2351044veb.32 for ; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:01:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.52.69.146 with SMTP id e18mr38475692vdu.15.1398315696923; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:01:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.144.9 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Apr 2014 22:01:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <700717d1-6c0c-4b4c-a6d2-77d5401f0db5@googlegroups.com> <3609227.GqXVqLHqvH@caracal> From: Jacob Errington Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 01:01:16 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] how do you use sumka'i to refer to an outer bridi? To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c01::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3071cd0e66286704f7c2bef1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 8106 --20cf3071cd0e66286704f7c2bef1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I agree with latro'a. {ce'u} is for marking arguments in functions constructed primarily with the {ka} abstractor. If we use the property-based lujvo for desire, {kaidji}, then we can use {ce'u} without a problem: .i ma kaidji lo ka ce'u ponse lo mi gerku [what?] desires the property [X owns the (restrictively-associated-with)-me dog] Who wants to have my dog? {ka}-abstractions with only one {ce'u} are sometimes called infinitives for that reason, namely that they translate to infinitives in English and similar natural languages. .i mi'e la tsani mu'o On 23 April 2014 15:12, Ian Johnson wrote: > I disagree with this usage in a pretty fundamental way. {ce'u} is for > building functions, pe'i. > > mi'e la latro'a mu'o > > > On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > >> On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 09:12:38 neit wrote: >> > coi rodo >> > >> > A good example that I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the following: >> > Suppose I want to say, "Who wants my dog?" bau la lojban - .i ma djica >> lo >> > nu ____ ponse lo mi gerku >> > >> > I want a sumka'i in the ____ to refer to the "ma" in the main bridi. >> How >> > can I do that? Can I use the reflexive sumka'i vo'a? (.i ma djica lo >> nu >> > vo'a ponse lo mi gerku)? Or do those reflexive sumka'i only refer to >> their >> > native bridi, or can they "reach-out" and refer to the main bridi of >> which >> > they are a part? >> >> I'd use "ce'u", since it's in a nu-clause. >> >> Pierre >> -- >> ve ka'a ro klaji la .romas. se jmaji >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --20cf3071cd0e66286704f7c2bef1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with latro'a. {ce'u} is for marking argume= nts in functions constructed primarily with the {ka} abstractor. If we use = the property-based lujvo for desire, {kaidji}, then we can use {ce'u} w= ithout a problem:

.i ma kaidji lo ka ce'u ponse lo mi gerku
[what?] desires the pr= operty [X owns the (restrictively-associated-with)-me dog]
Who wants to = have my dog?

{ka}-abstractions with only one {ce'u} are sometime= s called infinitives for that reason, namely that they translate to infinit= ives in English and similar natural languages.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

<= br>
On 23 April 2014 15:12, Ian Johnson <bl= indbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
I disagree with this u= sage in a pretty fundamental way. {ce'u} is for building functions, pe&= #39;i.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o
<= div class=3D"h5">


On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org><= /span> wrote:
On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 09:12:38 neit wrote:
> coi rodo
>
> A good example that I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the foll= owing:
> Suppose I want to say, "Who wants my dog?" =C2=A0bau la lojb= an - .i ma djica lo
> nu ____ ponse lo mi gerku
>
> I want a sumka'i in the ____ to refer to the "ma" in the= main bridi. =C2=A0How
> can I do that? =C2=A0Can I use the reflexive sumka'i vo'a? =C2= =A0(.i ma djica lo nu
> vo'a ponse lo mi gerku)? =C2=A0Or do those reflexive sumka'i o= nly refer to their
> native bridi, or can they "reach-out" and refer to the main = bridi of which
> they are a part?

I'd use "ce'u", since it's in a nu-clause.

Pierre
--
ve ka'a ro klaji la .romas. se jmaji

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