Received: from mail-lb0-f189.google.com ([209.85.217.189]:52581) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WdMoB-0007Mh-4d for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:47:46 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f189.google.com with SMTP id w7sf228177lbi.16 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:47:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pC3ukEa9D81x3L+psnkVFljua81cYFDjlsm8bNkoxQ4=; b=F7rpDB5SYRt0qyguWFzz+8/KD9mVIyB1lDcrcdCJJ+ywn64dv8YBVxIooGCNZRHWnM I0vFA/YhHHUx2/tJHa/xAyNDCv0ZA6hwu6SRfHAYDx9x6l8CxdPTJvdtQcruC1u1dXPO JtvUUTlqqbV4HfrANwLqw9UYaYWxJEKkJu1QvakoxsYWa0by5uAp7kwSsWXx9slr+U47 kK/x341NOb34+nY+3IPDnsszabEDSiqb9QdXcgJy4eX0LnU92sA/KIqSGFKXreS6rLTW /y6xwsbx6n3XpDi1YkH5ufTepMH7ovYbbutRQzHquTTNTVs2aeA8MxjEB/KMwwbcYLPI oMPA== X-Received: by 10.180.87.198 with SMTP id ba6mr60618wib.10.1398358042420; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:47:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.9.212 with SMTP id c20ls144573wib.8.canary; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:47:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.14.32.137 with SMTP id o9mr431639eea.4.1398358039901; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x230.google.com (mail-we0-x230.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ng3si6004wic.0.2014.04.24.09.47.19 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::230; Received: by mail-we0-x230.google.com with SMTP id x48so2457392wes.7 for ; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:47:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.91.1 with SMTP id ca1mr3759493wib.32.1398358039769; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:47:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <700717d1-6c0c-4b4c-a6d2-77d5401f0db5@googlegroups.com> <3609227.GqXVqLHqvH@caracal> Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:47:19 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] how do you use sumka'i to refer to an outer bridi? From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043d67df3ab80904f7cc9a63 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 10193 --f46d043d67df3ab80904f7cc9a63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 kakne2 is marked as "event/state" so what? {kakne} even belong to the same semantic class as {djica} so what's wrong... 2014-04-24 9:01 GMT+04:00 Jacob Errington : > I agree with latro'a. {ce'u} is for marking arguments in functions > constructed primarily with the {ka} abstractor. If we use the > property-based lujvo for desire, {kaidji}, then we can use {ce'u} without a > problem: > > .i ma kaidji lo ka ce'u ponse lo mi gerku > [what?] desires the property [X owns the > (restrictively-associated-with)-me dog] > Who wants to have my dog? > > {ka}-abstractions with only one {ce'u} are sometimes called infinitives > for that reason, namely that they translate to infinitives in English and > similar natural languages. > > .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > > > On 23 April 2014 15:12, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> I disagree with this usage in a pretty fundamental way. {ce'u} is for >> building functions, pe'i. >> >> mi'e la latro'a mu'o >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >> >>> On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 09:12:38 neit wrote: >>> > coi rodo >>> > >>> > A good example that I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the >>> following: >>> > Suppose I want to say, "Who wants my dog?" bau la lojban - .i ma >>> djica lo >>> > nu ____ ponse lo mi gerku >>> > >>> > I want a sumka'i in the ____ to refer to the "ma" in the main bridi. >>> How >>> > can I do that? Can I use the reflexive sumka'i vo'a? (.i ma djica lo >>> nu >>> > vo'a ponse lo mi gerku)? Or do those reflexive sumka'i only refer to >>> their >>> > native bridi, or can they "reach-out" and refer to the main bridi of >>> which >>> > they are a part? >>> >>> I'd use "ce'u", since it's in a nu-clause. >>> >>> Pierre >>> -- >>> ve ka'a ro klaji la .romas. se jmaji >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043d67df3ab80904f7cc9a63 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
kakne2 is marked as "event/state" so what? {kakn= e} even belong to the same semantic class as {djica} so what's wrong...=


2014-04= -24 9:01 GMT+04:00 Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>:
I agree with latro'a. {= ce'u} is for marking arguments in functions constructed primarily with = the {ka} abstractor. If we use the property-based lujvo for desire, {kaidji= }, then we can use {ce'u} without a problem:

.i ma kaidji lo ka ce'u ponse lo mi gerku
[what?] desires the pr= operty [X owns the (restrictively-associated-with)-me dog]
Who wants to = have my dog?

{ka}-abstractions with only one {ce'u} are sometime= s called infinitives for that reason, namely that they translate to infinit= ives in English and similar natural languages.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o


On 23= April 2014 15:12, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>= wrote:
I disagree with this u= sage in a pretty fundamental way. {ce'u} is for building functions, pe&= #39;i.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o


On Wed, Apr 23, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org><= /span> wrote:
On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 09:12:38 neit wrote:
> coi rodo
>
> A good example that I'm trying to wrap my brain around is the foll= owing:
> Suppose I want to say, "Who wants my dog?" =C2=A0bau la lojb= an - .i ma djica lo
> nu ____ ponse lo mi gerku
>
> I want a sumka'i in the ____ to refer to the "ma" in the= main bridi. =C2=A0How
> can I do that? =C2=A0Can I use the reflexive sumka'i vo'a? =C2= =A0(.i ma djica lo nu
> vo'a ponse lo mi gerku)? =C2=A0Or do those reflexive sumka'i o= nly refer to their
> native bridi, or can they "reach-out" and refer to the main = bridi of which
> they are a part?

I'd use "ce'u", since it's in a nu-clause.

Pierre
--
ve ka'a ro klaji la .romas. se jmaji

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