Received: from mail-ob0-f188.google.com ([209.85.214.188]:55485) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WgJjZ-0005Ni-TQ for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 02 May 2014 13:07:19 -0700 Received: by mail-ob0-f188.google.com with SMTP id gq1sf1008436obb.15 for ; Fri, 02 May 2014 13:06:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Vt0C5wfxJ4aeyWD3OtVu6ZZWN4WvjPAk+0MELVaMRIQ=; b=nMBVxT/zjrS2zsVZ+TckapiSJS5WVtOLMgYUFfXltVx2WyVmJurKaqGq+GzgJhnJVA aI615pLuYRzZkXmaoRnmgQ9fKUFeFUzO+Ujun++lFch6TC9re0bFZgP8sU3La4FoE4H/ 41jirGP8XeiqoGlbociQ0qWRAVGB5b22VDc0AXW8JXWgJO+iMhS85oWcffQ6AA3S/kOX 2jutbO96FVklZIj94zzQv6n18HSpvzY3C8hPPuypwBnPr59j2Q+4XzeZGXI/11RJEYow bDiG70VJXVgtS7rCfANm0l08sfj2lJf2npaN7tEOHB+x8c3DE/bQiC4Du/sx3le1srXs LT9Q== X-Received: by 10.140.47.201 with SMTP id m67mr308qga.29.1399061215925; Fri, 02 May 2014 13:06:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.32.203 with SMTP id h69ls1670660qgh.56.gmail; Fri, 02 May 2014 13:06:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.236.199.108 with SMTP id w72mr8364052yhn.10.1399061214859; Fri, 02 May 2014 13:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22d.google.com (mail-vc0-x22d.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id vl16si1356201vdb.1.2014.05.02.13.06.54 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 02 May 2014 13:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22d; Received: by mail-vc0-f173.google.com with SMTP id ik5so5891713vcb.18 for ; Fri, 02 May 2014 13:06:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.187.165 with SMTP id ft5mr1113975vec.47.1399061214722; Fri, 02 May 2014 13:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.170.73 with HTTP; Fri, 2 May 2014 13:06:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <51fedff8-02bc-4f18-91c7-0d9cd6546315@googlegroups.com> References: <51fedff8-02bc-4f18-91c7-0d9cd6546315@googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 2 May 2014 17:06:54 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] {lo ka "attitudinal"} From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22d as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6dd13ab903bb04f87052ca X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / Content-Length: 17623 --047d7b6dd13ab903bb04f87052ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 This is what the Wikipedia article on "Emotion" says: << [...] Emotions are brief in duration and consist of a coordinated set of responses, which may include verbal, physiological , behavioural , and neural mechanisms.[...] Emotion can be differentiated from a number of similar constructs within the field of affective neuroscience :[6] - *Feelings * are best understood as a subjective representation of emotions, private to the individual experiencing them. - *Moods * are diffuse affective states that generally last for much longer durations than emotions and are also usually less intense than emotions. >> I would say interjections are best suited to express emotions ("brief in duration"). If what someone wants is to explain their feelings, or describe their mood, then it seems to me they are better off with regular sentences. An interjection is a spontaneous and almost automatic verbal response, not a thought out dissection of your current mood. I'm not saying you can't use UIs to give a detailed and exhaustive description of your present feelings if that's what you want to do, but I don't think that's their function, nor that they are the best tool to do that. (It's also worth remembering that selma'o UI contains many other things besides interjections to express emotion, such as evidentials, discourse markers, modality markers and so on.) mu'o mi'e xorxes On Fri, May 2, 2014 at 12:51 PM, .neit. wrote: > Ah .xorxes.! Every question I have, I turn around, and there you are with > a handy answer! It's an immense help. Thank you! > > In introspect, I'd say this comes down to {lo ka mi nintadni la .lojban. > kei} I don't have a depth of familiarity with the emotive gismu like > {cfipu}. Instead, I've been familiarizing myself with the attitudinals as > a means to express my feelings bau la .lojban. As indicators they have a > very flexible grammer, and no place structure to consider. Perfect for {mi > poi nintadni} to cut my teeth on. Additionally, I like how you can > compound the attitudinals and "construct" the feeling you're experincing > from baser emotive elements. It has an effect, on me at least, of > increasing my awareness of what I feel. I think this happens because I > must articulate each piece of what I feel rather than stating a word that > represents what I feel. For these reasons, I have been relying heavily on > attitudinals to express myself. > > I think when I become more familiar with the emotive gismu, and I have > more practice with compound tanru and lujvo making, I'll likely have the > same ability to construct what I feel to a satisfactory degree of > articulation, with the benefits of being able to manipulate these compound > feelings in bridi. > > As for my assertion that attitudinals are more articulate. It could just > seem that way to me because {mi nintadni}, and I have experimented more > with attitudinals than the emotive gismu. To me it seems that I could > combine and modify attitudinals ad infinitum to express emotive compounds > whose meanings become more and more discrete with each added attitudinal or > attitudinal compound. It occurs to me that with lujvo, and tanru (and the > ability to manipulate internal tanru components with grouping with > {ke...ke'e}, linking other sumti with {be...bei...be'o}, and logically > connecting components with jeks). One could likely get the same or similar > degree of articulation with bridi using the emotive gismu. > > Would you say that is your experience? > > ke'u ki'e doi .xorxes. > mi'e .neit. mu'o > > On Thursday, May 1, 2014 9:41:10 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote: > >> On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 3:50 PM, .neit. wrote: >> >>> coi rodo >>> >>> .uanai .e'o So if I wanted to say {mi ca tarti lo ka _attitudinal_ kei} >>> Would that be gramatical? >>> >> >> No, "ka ... kei" requires a bridi. >> >>> I ask because with the attitudinals, their scales, modifiers, >>> categories and sheer compoundability, a speaker could articulate to a >>> higher degree, his/her feelings than simply using brivla. And given that, >>> there are times when you would want to express a feeling in bridi form, >>> which brivla fail to adequately specify. I'm trying to get at a way of >>> discussing an attitudinal compound in a bridi. >>> >> >> You could create a brivla out of the attitudinal, for example "mi tarti >> lo ka ua zei nai". But I'm not sure I'd describe that as more articulate >> than "mi tarti lo ka se cfipu". Maybe somewhat comparable to saying "I went >> 'huh?'" vs "I acted confused". >> >> >>> Could I assign the attitudinal compound to an assignable sumka'i using >>> {goi} and discuss the attitudinal compound using that sumka'i? >>> >> >> No, you can only assign the referents of a sumti with goi. You could say >> something like "ko'a goi la'e lu ua nai li'u" >> > mu'o mi'e xorxes >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b6dd13ab903bb04f87052ca Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is what the Wikipedia article on "= ;Emotion" says:

<<

[...] Emotions are brief in dur= ation and consist of a coordinated set of responses, which may include verb= al,=C2=A0physiological,=C2=A0behavioural, and= =C2=A0neural=C2=A0mechanisms.[...]

Emotion can b= e differentiated from a number of similar constructs within the field of=C2= =A0affective neurosci= ence:[6]

  • Feelings=C2=A0are best understood as a=C2=A0su= bjective=C2=A0representation of emotions, private to the individual exp= eriencing them.
  • Moods=C2=A0are=C2=A0= diffuse=C2=A0affective states that generally last for much longer dura= tions than emotions and are also usually less intense than emotions.
>>

I would say interjections are best suited to ex= press emotions ("brief in duration"). If what someone wants is to= explain their feelings, or describe their mood, then it seems to me they a= re better off with regular sentences. An interjection is a spontaneous and = almost automatic verbal response, not a thought out dissection of your curr= ent mood. I'm not saying you can't use UIs to give a detailed and e= xhaustive description of your present feelings if that's what you want = to do, but I don't think that's their function, nor that they are t= he best tool to do that.

(It's also worth remembering that selma'o UI co= ntains many other things besides interjections to express emotion, such as = evidentials, discourse markers, modality markers and so on.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes



On Fri, May 2, 2014 at= 12:51 PM, .neit. <kosmikconundrum@gmail.com> wrote:=
Ah .xorxes.!=C2=A0 Eve= ry question I have, I turn around, and there you are with a handy answer!= =C2=A0 It's an immense help.=C2=A0 Thank you!
=C2=A0
In introspect, I'd say this comes down to {lo ka mi nintadni la .l= ojban. kei} I don't have a depth of familiarity with the emotive gismu = like {cfipu}.=C2=A0 Instead, I've been familiarizing myself with the at= titudinals as a means to express my feelings bau la .lojban.=C2=A0 As indic= ators they have a very flexible grammer, and no place structure to consider= .=C2=A0 Perfect for {mi poi nintadni} to cut my teeth on.=C2=A0 Additionall= y, I like how you can compound the attitudinals and "construct" t= he feeling you're experincing from baser emotive elements.=C2=A0 It has= an effect, on me at least, of increasing my awareness of what I feel.=C2= =A0 I think this happens because I must articulate each piece of what I fee= l rather than stating a word that represents what I feel.=C2=A0 For these r= easons, I have been relying heavily on attitudinals to=C2=A0express myself.= =C2=A0
=C2=A0
I think when I become more familiar with the emotive gismu, and=C2=A0I= have more practice with compound tanru and lujvo making, I'll likely h= ave the same ability to construct what I feel to a satisfactory degree of a= rticulation, with the benefits of being able to manipulate these compound f= eelings in bridi.
=C2=A0
As for my assertion that attitudinals are more articulate.=C2=A0 It co= uld just seem that way to me because {mi nintadni}, and I have experimented= more with attitudinals than the emotive gismu.=C2=A0 To me it seems that I= could combine and modify attitudinals ad infinitum to express emotive comp= ounds whose meanings become more and more discrete with each added attitudi= nal or attitudinal compound.=C2=A0 It occurs to me that with lujvo, and tan= ru (and the ability to manipulate internal tanru components with grouping w= ith {ke...ke'e}, linking other sumti with {be...bei...be'o}, and lo= gically connecting components with jeks).=C2=A0 One could likely get the sa= me or similar degree of articulation with bridi using the emotive gismu.=C2= =A0
=C2=A0
Would you say that is your experience?
=C2=A0
ke'u ki'e doi .xorxes.
mi'e .neit. mu'o

On Thursday, May 1, 2014 9:41:10 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:
On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 3:50 PM, .neit. <kosmikc...@gmail.com> wrote:
coi rodo
=C2=A0
.uanai .e'o So if I wanted to say {mi ca tarti lo ka=C2=A0_attitud= inal_ kei}=C2=A0 Would that be gramatical?=C2=A0
=C2=A0
No, "ka ... kei" requires a bridi.=C2=A0
I ask because with the attitudinals, their scales, modifiers, categori= es and sheer compoundability, a speaker could articulate to a higher degree= , his/her feelings than simply using brivla.=C2=A0 And given that, there ar= e times when you would want to express a feeling in bridi form, which brivl= a fail to adequately specify.=C2=A0 I'm trying to get at a way of discu= ssing an attitudinal compound in a bridi.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
You could create a brivla out of the attitudinal, for example "mi= tarti lo ka ua zei nai". But I'm not sure I'd describe that a= s more articulate than "mi tarti lo ka se cfipu". Maybe somewhat = comparable to saying "I went 'huh?'" vs "I acted con= fused". =C2=A0
=C2=A0
Could I assign the attitudinal compound to an assignable sumka'i u= sing {goi} and discuss the attitudinal compound using that sumka'i?=C2= =A0
=C2=A0
No, you can only assign the referents of a sumti with goi. You could s= ay something like "ko'a goi la'e lu ua nai li'u"
mu'o mi'e xorxes=C2=A0=C2=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--047d7b6dd13ab903bb04f87052ca--