Received: from mail-la0-f60.google.com ([209.85.215.60]:46745) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1WvRlq-00045i-Rh for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:44:14 -0700 Received: by mail-la0-f60.google.com with SMTP id pn19sf242463lab.5 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:43:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=JGcjNa/++4zUp0eMojBiUTKYq7HObADryYsNU5V5eY4=; b=bozC3VANLeNisA/y/M5FbBjFrbTNGEVxouQAleE9VvqRwW/OIeRotBUjdjWCt0GJIo ETDAFB60joqaZX5y251mOT7VX+faZZjMkV2iDMhMIV/UZ168MnmLgE9dtkvudN8Le8+J 9D8pS6VRGMAESyH3umQUZgVGDi1Eozrwipu0bQmzFOOdfidSmsjWHLTB7WRaCRyGgB4Z BUwa/GIRgO3shXloG2RqDBEecfIOGbl648H9ja/GSeo1n6F85EpVHXORcuhoQm8mJw3I QBYODhRXAouzROxB1UbXSyQoAl5XujGEEy1q46jhCPmvnPrNdOgMztcxPBzJmk+KyGNC axfA== X-Received: by 10.180.212.111 with SMTP id nj15mr9882wic.17.1402667027309; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:43:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.100.163 with SMTP id ez3ls57485wib.6.gmail; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:43:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.228.107 with SMTP id sh11mr358436wic.6.1402667025880; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x229.google.com (mail-we0-x229.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c03::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s3si157606wic.3.2014.06.13.06.43.45 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c03::229; Received: by mail-we0-x229.google.com with SMTP id t60so2888827wes.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:43:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.186.210 with SMTP id fm18mr4444038wjc.67.1402667025790; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.25.163 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jun 2014 06:43:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 17:43:45 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: {konju} and its place structure From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c03::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f234449cf7d8904fbb7ddd1 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 11194 --e89a8f234449cf7d8904fbb7ddd1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 How to fill konju3 then? As for {pirmidi} I just stole this word from Loglan once. 2014-06-13 7:40 GMT+04:00 Ross Ogilvie : > Getting my math nerd on, there's no reason the region has to be connected, > or has to be embedded in R^N for that matter, but the idea is right. The > formal definition is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_%28topology%29 . > If you wanted a predicate for a general cone like this, I'd go with: x1 is > a cone with base x2 and vertex x3. Obviously you could swap the last two > places, but this way it's more compatible with the current konju and also > allows you to easily specify the type of cone, eg > 1) lo konju be lo cukla > a circular cone > > 2) lo konju be lo cibjgatai > a triangular pyramid > > Compare also to {pirmidi}. > > -- Ross > > > On 13 June 2014 00:06, wrote: > >> The definition more prevalent in higher math is: the object created by >> taking a connected region in N dimensions, and a point outside that region >> in N+1 dimensions, and including all lines between that point and any point >> in the region. I would consider that the "standard" definition. Both of >> yours are special cases where N=2 and the region is circular. Pyramids and >> ellipsoidal cones are also legit cones. >> >> >> On Friday, May 23, 2014 4:00:01 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: >> >>> There are two main definitions of "cone": >>> 1. (geometry) A surface of revolution formed by rotating a segment of a >>> line around another line that intersects the first line. >>> 2. (geometry) A solid of revolution formed by rotating a triangle around >>> one of its altitudes. >>> >>> I think neither meaning of "cone" reflects {konju}. I think {konju} >>> describes a *segment* of a line (possibly infinite thus identical to a line >>> in such case) revolving around another linear segment thus forming a >>> *surface*. As for konju1 it describes an object (possibly immaterial) with >>> *a property* of such cone-ness. >>> >>> This explains why only vertex is specified. but konju2 seems to be >>> superflous then since it is not always necessary. >>> >>> >>> 2014-05-23 12:11 GMT+04:00 Gleki Arxokuna : >>> >>> The definition of {konju} is rather cryptic. >>>> >>>> x1 is a cone [shape/form] of material x2 with vertex x3. Also ellipse, >>>> ellipsoid (= konclupa). See also jesni, djine, sovda, kojna, jganu. >>>> >>>> "Cone" is this object: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:PovCone.jpg >>>> either only the surface of an object made after the revolution of a >>>> triangle. That's why konju3 seems strange. Why only vertex is defined? >>>> >>>> Definitely cone it's not an ellipse. >>>> >>>> Could you please explain this? >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --e89a8f234449cf7d8904fbb7ddd1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How to fill konju3 then?

As for {pirmid= i} I just stole this word from Loglan once.


2014-06-13 7:40 GMT+04:00 Ross Og= ilvie <ross@rossogilvie.id.au>:
Getting my math nerd on, there's no reason the region has to be conn= ected, or has to be embedded in R^N for that matter, but the idea is right.= The formal definition is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_%28topolo= gy%29 . If you wanted a predicate for a general cone like this, I'd= go with: x1 is a cone with base x2 and vertex x3. Obviously you could swap= the last two places, but this way it's more compatible with the curren= t konju and also allows you to easily specify the type of cone, eg
1) lo konju be lo cukla
a circular cone

2) lo k= onju be lo cibjgatai
a triangular pyramid

Compare als= o to {pirmidi}.

-- Ross<= /span>


On 13 June 2014 00:06, <len.budney@= gmail.com> wrote:
The definition more prevalent in higher math is: the objec= t created by taking a connected region in N dimensions, and a point outside= that region in N+1 dimensions, and including all lines between that point = and any point in the region. I would consider that the "standard"= definition. Both of yours are special cases where N=3D2 and the region is = circular. Pyramids and ellipsoidal cones are also legit cones.


On Friday, May 23, 2014 4:00:01 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:
There are two main definitions of "cone":
1. (geom= etry) A surface of revolution formed by rotating a segment of a line around= another line that intersects the first line.
2. (geometry) A sol= id of revolution formed by rotating a triangle around one of its altitudes.=

I think neither meaning of "cone" reflects {k= onju}. I think {konju} describes a *segment* of a line (possibly infinite t= hus identical to a line in such case) revolving around another linear segme= nt thus forming a *surface*. As for konju1 it describes an object (possibly= immaterial) with *a property* of such cone-ness.

This explains why only vertex is specified.=C2=A0but ko= nju2 seems to be superflous then since it is not always necessary.


2014-05-23 12:11 GMT+04:00= Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>:

The definition of {kon= ju} is rather cryptic.

x1 is a cone [shape/form] o= f material x2 with vertex x3. Also ellipse, ellipsoid (=3D konclupa). See a= lso jesni, djine, sovda, kojna, jganu.

either only the surf= ace of an object made after the revolution of a triangle. That's why ko= nju3 seems strange. Why only vertex is defined?

Definitely cone it's not an ellipse.

=
Could you please explain this?

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