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Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 22:35:34 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Repeating specific sumti within the same bridi
From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
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There are a number of options. If you're using the same sumti twice in a
row, {ri} is perfect for the job; they carry the referent, not the symbol.
The counting rule for {ri} is a little weird: it refers to the most recent
sumti which is fully closed, where we are counting in order of beginnings.
So in {lo nu broda ko'a cu brode ri}, {ri} refers back to {ko'a}, as it is
the most recently-begun sumti which is fully closed. This rule is slightly
confusing because it does not mean that it refers back to the most
recently-closed sumti, which in my example is {lo nu broda ko'a}.

The most flexible option is to perform variable assignment with {goi},
using the ko'V/fo'V series as your variables. A slightly more volatile but
perhaps easier to follow option is to assign to letterals like {by}; this
is technically less precise because the letteral variables are allowed to
have their referent change from context, whereas ko'V/fo'V are really not
allowed to do so.

A brief, useful, but imprecise way is to use letterals. {lo gerku} for
example is often referred back to as {gy}. This obviously does not work for
large sumti like abstractors.

In your particular case, the problem is probably best fixed by a scope
trick:

.i na ku ro da zo'u lo du'u da barda narju bo bolci cu nibli lo du'u da
najnimre

"It is not the case that for every X, the proposition "X is a big
orange-sphere" implies the proposition "X is an orange [citrus fruit]"."

mi'e la latro'a mu'o


On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:37 PM, lolkomcu <marimbasfz@gmail.com> wrote:

> I might be overthinking this considerably, but is there a way to specify
> that a an entity referred to multiple times in a bridi is the same exact
> entity each time it is referred to? For instance,
>
> le du'u lo dacti cu barda narju bo bolci na nibli le du'u lo dacti cu
> najnimre
>
> "The fact that an object is a large, orange sphere does not imply the fact
> that an object is an orange." is what this appears to say to me, though
> what I mean to say is more like "Just because *something* is big, round and
> orange doesn't mean [the same *something*] is an orange."
>
> In other words, how do I prevent myself from saying something like "the
> fact that one thing (e.g. a basketball) is big, round and orange does not
> imply the fact that some *other* thing (which may not be big, round, or
> orange at all e.g. a potato) is an orange," which seems kind of pointless
> to state.
>
> Also: Do pro-sumti like ri, ra, and ru (and others) imply the same
> referent as their first incarnation, or could a "ra" referring to "lo
> dacti" be referring to an entirely different entity which is also a
> "dacti"? Can those even refer to internal sumti?
>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>There are a number of option=
s. If you&#39;re using the same sumti twice in a row, {ri} is perfect for t=
he job; they carry the referent, not the symbol. The counting rule for {ri}=
 is a little weird: it refers to the most recent sumti which is fully close=
d, where we are counting in order of beginnings. So in {lo nu broda ko&#39;=
a cu brode ri}, {ri} refers back to {ko&#39;a}, as it is the most recently-=
begun sumti which is fully closed. This rule is slightly confusing because =
it does not mean that it refers back to the most recently-closed sumti, whi=
ch in my example is {lo nu broda ko&#39;a}.<br>
<br></div>The most flexible option is to perform variable assignment with {=
goi}, using the ko&#39;V/fo&#39;V series as your variables. A slightly more=
 volatile but perhaps easier to follow option is to assign to letterals lik=
e {by}; this is technically less precise because the letteral variables are=
 allowed to have their referent change from context, whereas ko&#39;V/fo=
9;V are really not allowed to do so.<br>
<br></div>A brief, useful, but imprecise way is to use letterals. {lo gerku=
} for example is often referred back to as {gy}. This obviously does not wo=
rk for large sumti like abstractors.<br><br></div>In your particular case, =
the problem is probably best fixed by a scope trick:<br>
<br></div>.i na ku ro da zo&#39;u lo du&#39;u da barda narju bo bolci cu ni=
bli lo du&#39;u da <br>najnimre<br><br></div>&quot;It is not the case that =
for every X, the proposition &quot;X is a big orange-sphere&quot; implies t=
he proposition &quot;X is an orange [citrus fruit]&quot;.&quot;<br>
<br></div>mi&#39;e la latro&#39;a mu&#39;o<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:37 PM, lol=
komcu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marimbasfz@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">marimbasfz@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I might be overthinking this considerably, b=
ut is there a way to specify that a an entity referred to multiple times in=
 a bridi is the same exact entity each time it is referred to? For instance=
,<br>

<br>
le du&#39;u lo dacti cu barda narju bo bolci na nibli le du&#39;u lo dacti =
cu najnimre<br>
<br>
&quot;The fact that an object is a large, orange sphere does not imply the =
fact that an object is an orange.&quot; is what this appears to say to me, =
though what I mean to say is more like &quot;Just because *something* is bi=
g, round and orange doesn&#39;t mean [the same *something*] is an orange.&q=
uot;<br>

<br>
In other words, how do I prevent myself from saying something like &quot;th=
e fact that one thing (e.g. a basketball) is big, round and orange does not=
 imply the fact that some *other* thing (which may not be big, round, or or=
ange at all e.g. a potato) is an orange,&quot; which seems kind of pointles=
s to state.<br>

<br>
Also: Do pro-sumti like ri, ra, and ru (and others) imply the same referent=
 as their first incarnation, or could a &quot;ra&quot; referring to &quot;l=
o dacti&quot; be referring to an entirely different entity which is also a =
&quot;dacti&quot;? Can those even refer to internal sumti?<br>

<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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