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Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 12:01:26 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] {bilni}. How to use? It has been use only once!
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I can see bilni in two ways.
>
> 1) bende with the x2 removed, plus the usual connotations of things being
> military. (That being said, I would like to see bende2 removed, since it's
> just another instance of group membership which can be achieved by other
> means.)
>

I have a different view on "bende", I think the x2 is important, and the x3
is the one that doesn't belong. For me bende is just a special case of
gunma, just like bakfu, stura, liste, cecmu and so many others. There are
many gismu wih an emergent-constituents relation between x1 and x2 and I
think it's a good regularity. I consider flock, herd, swarm, etc examples
of "bende", and I don't think they must necessarily have a leader. If we
need to talk about lo jatna be lo bende, we can say "lo jatna be lo bende",
or "lo bedja'a". I don't think "bende" should be burdened with a place for
a leader, because it restricts its meaning too much.

2) the definition is a bit off. Read it instead like this: "bilni = x1 is
> *a* military/regimented/strongly organized x2 for purpose x3". This way,
> bilni is what I call a "connotation selbri", like the cultural gismu. This
> allows you to use it as a compositional adjective, like mutce et al. e.g.
> bende bilni -> bilni lo ka ce'u bende -> "army". You can effectively
> "militarize" any selbri by sticking "bilni" onto the end thus.
>

Agreed, if I had been thrown the keyword "military" to make a place
structure for it I would have said "x1 is military in property/aspect x2",
because that's the usual place structure for adjectives.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Jacob Errington <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nictytan@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>I can see bilni i=
n two ways.<br><br>1) bende with the x2 removed, plus the usual connotation=
s of things being military. (That being said, I would like to see bende2 re=
moved, since it&#39;s just another instance of group membership which can b=
e achieved by other means.)<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>I have a different view on &quot;bende&quot;, I think the x2 i=
s important, and the x3 is the one that doesn&#39;t belong. For me bende is=
 just a special case of gunma, just like bakfu, stura, liste, cecmu and so =
many others. There are many gismu wih an emergent-constituents relation bet=
ween x1 and x2 and I think it&#39;s a good regularity. I consider flock, he=
rd, swarm, etc examples of &quot;bende&quot;, and I don&#39;t think they mu=
st necessarily have a leader. If we need to talk about lo jatna be lo bende=
, we can say &quot;lo jatna be lo bende&quot;, or &quot;lo bedja&#39;a&quot=
;. I don&#39;t think &quot;bende&quot; should be burdened with a place for =
a leader, because it restricts its meaning too much.</div><div><br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>2) the definition is a bit off. Read it inste=
ad like this: &quot;bilni =3D x1 is <b>a</b> military/regimented/strongly o=
rganized x2 for purpose x3&quot;. This way, bilni is what I call a &quot;co=
nnotation selbri&quot;, like the cultural gismu. This allows you to use it =
as a compositional adjective, like mutce et al. e.g. bende bilni -&gt; biln=
i lo ka ce&#39;u bende -&gt; &quot;army&quot;. You can effectively &quot;mi=
litarize&quot; any selbri by sticking &quot;bilni&quot; onto the end thus.<=
br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Agreed, if I ha=
d been thrown the keyword &quot;military&quot; to make a place structure fo=
r it I would have said &quot;x1 is military in property/aspect x2&quot;, be=
cause that&#39;s the usual place structure for adjectives.</div><div><br></=
div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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