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Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 16:12:19 -0400
From: Alex Burka <durka42@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Message-ID: <8337FE1190FA4F7899AE3CE39A7F6111@gmail.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] kiwi fu'ivla vs. the morphology
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Yesterday, I went to the farmers=E2=80=99 market and bought some kiwi berri=
es. Then, I entered some stage-3 fu=E2=80=99ivla for kiwi fruits and kiwi b=
erries (they are different, as I learned yesterday!) into jbovlaste. I spel=
led them {grutrkiui} and {jbarnkiui}. It may be relevant to note that there=
 is already a stage-3.5 fu=E2=80=99ivla for kiwi bird, but spelled {cpirkiv=
i}. =20

Wuzzy raised a good question, which is whether my new fu'ivla {grutrkiui} i=
s pronounced ?{grut,r,ki,ui} or ?{grut,r,kiu,i} (and similarly for the othe=
r one). Of course I intended the former pronunciation. And I think that=E2=
=80=99s the correct one, given the current morphology. But it seems to me t=
he answer would be different using the old CLL morphology. My reasoning is =
below. Do you agree?

CLL version: it pretty clearly says in section 3.5 that =E2=80=9C[w]hen mor=
e than two vowels occur together in Lojban, the normal pronunciation pairs =
vowels from the left into syllables=E2=80=9D. So in =E2=80=9Ciui=E2=80=9D, =
the first =E2=80=9Ciu=E2=80=9D would be grouped together as a diphthong, le=
aving =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D. There are some problems with this, but then agai=
n that=E2=80=99s why we have a new morphology! Moving on=E2=80=A6

camxes version: from here (http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Morphology%3A+syllabl=
es). If [kiu] were the second-to-last syllable, then bare [i] would be the =
last syllable, but that would be an empty onset. Empty onsets are filled by=
 pauses, but that can only happen at the beginning of a word. Therefore, it=
 can only be split into syllables as -[ki]-[ui]. QED(?).
(Full disclosure: this explanation was constructed to fit the facts after t=
esting to see how camxes parsed the word.)

mu=E2=80=99o mi=E2=80=99e la durka

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                <div>
                    Yesterday, I went to the farmers=E2=80=99 market and bo=
ught some kiwi berries. Then, I entered some stage-3 fu=E2=80=99ivla for ki=
wi fruits and kiwi berries (they are different, as I learned yesterday!) in=
to jbovlaste. I spelled them {grutrkiui} and {jbarnkiui}. It may be relevan=
t to note that there is already a stage-3.5 fu=E2=80=99ivla for kiwi bird, =
but spelled {cpirkivi}.
                </div><div><br></div><div>Wuzzy raised a good question, whi=
ch is whether my new fu'ivla {grutrkiui} is pronounced ?{grut,r,ki,ui} or ?=
{grut,r,kiu,i} (and similarly for the other one). Of course I intended the =
former pronunciation. And I think that=E2=80=99s the correct one, given the=
 current morphology. But it seems to me the answer would be different using=
 the old CLL morphology. My reasoning is below. Do you agree?</div><div><br=
></div><div>CLL version: it pretty clearly says in section 3.5 that =E2=80=
=9C[w]hen more than two vowels occur together in Lojban, the normal pronunc=
iation pairs vowels from the left into syllables=E2=80=9D. So in =E2=80=9Ci=
ui=E2=80=9D, the first =E2=80=9Ciu=E2=80=9D would be grouped together as a =
diphthong, leaving =E2=80=9Ci=E2=80=9D. There are some problems with this, =
but then again that=E2=80=99s why we have a new morphology! Moving on=E2=80=
=A6</div><div><br></div><div>camxes version: from <a href=3D"http://www.loj=
ban.org/tiki/Morphology%3A+syllables">here</a>. If [kiu] were the second-to=
-last syllable, then bare [i] would be the last syllable, but that would be=
 an empty onset. Empty onsets are filled by pauses, but that can only happe=
n at the beginning of a word. Therefore, it can only be split into syllable=
s as -[ki]-[ui]. QED(?).</div><div>(Full disclosure: this explanation was c=
onstructed to fit the facts after testing to see how camxes parsed the word=
.)</div><div><br></div><div>mu=E2=80=99o mi=E2=80=99e la durka</div><div><b=
r></div>
                <div></div>
           =20

<p></p>

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