Received: from mail-pd0-f184.google.com ([209.85.192.184]:57178) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XUz5M-0007KP-L3 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:22:59 -0700 Received: by mail-pd0-f184.google.com with SMTP id w10sf7009pde.21 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:22:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=689m6TdVG2chjo/jTjgJFaMV6gsCFy6v6WFOFYk3V/Q=; b=GSiIT/uDuYtgrBf9knTSv0RPESaGoTM6V0hRSc0ditvtzjnu+F6LLfpyFqPFseHFFV o4F0/JChanrz5tkLhbi2aDPDDk6nYptG3u/r8LhzGoqhU3mua5yxWB/Nz4ayb3sCXsFC tyfUTLeGy71dVZzbQucUkYkgDXSWwkOmzDRXCkrAOf2QiLBJzASK2wY60z9NiS41ofOo 4RLJrJ+cGRK6l6u2zFULCqZOxrhlGAGmNRcpw1W+Hroe3Qq9E04JyxZdaG4fvAtXAbX8 ayIfpto9urKvpaAmgipIVP63EzcFdfWMyS+wIWeViqJSY+kCFlDcmlZ5LFBRGT32cs4/ xjxg== X-Received: by 10.50.114.170 with SMTP id jh10mr782938igb.6.1411136570246; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:22:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.50.171 with SMTP id d11ls508063igo.40.canary; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:22:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.122.97 with SMTP id lr1mr9453394pab.19.1411136569110; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x236.google.com (mail-qg0-x236.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si378277qcd.0.2014.09.19.07.22.49 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::236; Received: by mail-qg0-f54.google.com with SMTP id z60so2813285qgd.13 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:22:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.28.133 with SMTP id m5mr1203708qac.16.1411136568801; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.201.74 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:22:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5076980.qB49T6XaTr@caracal> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 10:22:48 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lamji4 From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1db70e9d09a05036bd5c7 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 24124 --001a11c1db70e9d09a05036bd5c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, okay, NOW I understand what your question is -- object vs. property. (of course, I've always been very soft on this issue (strong typing of sumti places) in pretty much all brivla. I believe that such restrictions aren't usually useful and just serve to limit the language in ways that it shouldn't be limited) That being said, I think that directions (lo farna) can be thought of as EITHER objects or properties. Think of vectors. I can think of them either as being fully described by their endpoints (Let's go to my house) or as an orientation plus distance (Let's go .5 kilometers NNE) Now, we are not including a distance when discussing farna or equivalently ve lamji, so we are actually describing a ray originating from where we are and passing through that endpoint. This is equivalent to "Let's head towards my house" or "Let's head NNE" The first is an example of Pierre's construction, and the latter the ka-abstraction. (i.e. Pierre is saying "in the direction of the West (of Spain) thing"), and I think both are equally valid. --gejyspa On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > you said probably Pierre forgot to put {kei}. If so lamji4=3Dstici1 > However, the other examples shows lamji4 =3D {lo ka ce'u ce'u purci}. > > The first example describes an object, the second one is a clause. > Which one do you prefer? > > > 2014-09-19 18:03 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : > >> Again, I'm not sure what the conflict you see is, so that's why I am >> asking you to clarify. >> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Well, I just found this example in the corpus. So we have two >>> conflicting views on how to fill it. If so what shall I do? >>> What is your opinion on lamji4? >>> >>> 2014-09-19 17:35 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky : >>> >>>> I'm not asking about your original question. I'm asking about your >>>> comment on Pierre's example that it "differs with other usage where >>>> lamji4 was {lo ka ce'u ce'u purci}." >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> My question: give me a meaningful plixau examples with all places of >>>>> cimde filled with other than LA-sumti and pro-sumti. >>>>> If you are saying that a place can be filled only with them please >>>>> explcitely state that. >>>>> A translation (not glossing) to English is required. >>>>> >>>>> I'm working on new gimste with usage examples. Without usage the wor= d >>>>> or a te sumti doesnt exist for me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2014-09-19 17:09 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky = : >>>>> >>>>>> Gleki, >>>>>> Is your question one about usage as both spatial and temporal >>>>>> dimensions? Because if so, lojban has no problem with that many tim= es >>>>>> things like that. "cimde" itself, for example, can be either measur= ement. >>>>>> "ti" can be either "here" or "now". lidne can be referring either = to >>>>>> something in a line, a time sequence, or even just an abstract mathe= matical >>>>>> concept. >>>>>> >>>>>> Or am I missing the subject of your query? >>>>>> ---gejyspa >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 2:52 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < >>>>>> gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This differs with other usage where lamji4 was {lo ka ce'u ce'u >>>>>>> purci}. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> {la potygug cu maji la sangug lo ka stuzi vau lo ka ce'u ce'u stici >>>>>>> vo'a}? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2014-05-08 20:29 GMT+04:00 Pierre Abbat : >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 08, 2014 15:47:45 Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>>>>>>> > what would be the most useful example of lamji with the four >>>>>>>> places filled >>>>>>>> > in? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Don't know about the *most* useful, but here's one: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> la .potygug. lamji la .sangug. lo ka stuzi lo stici >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The definition doesn't clarify whether lo ve lamji cu farna lo >>>>>>>> lamji lo se >>>>>>>> lamji gi'ikau farna lo se lamji lo lamji. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mu'omi'e .pier. >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> La sal en el mar es m=C3=A1s que en la sangre. >>>>>>>> Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginner= s >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners= . >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, sen= d >>>>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m >>>>> . >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= . >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c1db70e9d09a05036bd5c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Ah, okay, NOW I understand what your question is --= =C2=A0object vs. property.

=C2=A0 (of course, I've = always been very soft on this issue (strong typing of sumti places) in pret= ty much all brivla. =C2=A0I believe that such restrictions aren't usual= ly useful and just serve to limit the language in ways that it shouldn'= t be limited)

=C2=A0 That being said, I think that= directions (lo farna) can be thought of as EITHER objects or properties. = =C2=A0Think of vectors. =C2=A0I can think of them either as being fully des= cribed by their endpoints (Let's go to my house) or as an orientation p= lus distance (Let's go .5 kilometers NNE) =C2=A0Now, we are not includi= ng a distance when discussing farna or equivalently ve lamji, so we are act= ually describing a ray originating from where we are and passing through th= at endpoint. =C2=A0This is equivalent to "Let's head towards my ho= use" or "Let's head NNE" =C2=A0The first is an example o= f Pierre's construction, and the latter the ka-abstraction. =C2=A0(i.e.= Pierre is saying "in the direction of the West (of Spain) thing"= ), and I think both are equally valid.

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Fri, = Sep 19, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.= com> wrote:
you said probably Pierre forgot to put {kei}. If so lamji4=3Dstici1
H= owever, the other examples shows lamji4 =3D=C2=A0{lo ka ce'u ce'u= purci}.

The first example descr= ibes an object, the second one is a clause.
Which one do= you prefer?


2014-09-19 18:03 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.co= m>:
=C2=A0= Again, I'm not sure what the conflict you see is, so that's why I = am asking you to clarify.

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, I just found this example in the cor= pus. So we have two conflicting views on how to fill it. If so what shall I= do?
What is your opinion on lamji4?

2014-09-19 17:35 GMT+04:00 Mic= hael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>:
=C2=A0 I'm not asking about your or= iginal question. =C2=A0I'm asking about your comment on Pierre's ex= ample that it "differs with other usage where lamji4 was {lo ka ce'u ce'u pur= ci}."

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
My question: give me a meaningful plixau example= s with all places of cimde filled with other than LA-sumti and pro-sumti.If you are saying that a place can be filled only with them please explc= itely state that.
A translation (not glossing) to English is requ= ired.

I'm working on =C2=A0new gimste with usa= ge examples. Without usage the word or a te sumti doesnt exist for me.


2014-09-19 17:09 GMT+04:00 Michael Turniansky <mturni= ansky@gmail.com>:
Gleki,=C2=A0
=C2=A0 Is your question one about usage as both s= patial and temporal dimensions? =C2=A0Because if so, lojban has no problem = with that many times things like that. =C2=A0"cimde" itself, for = example, can be either measurement. =C2=A0"ti" can be either &quo= t;here" or "now". =C2=A0lidne can be referring either to som= ething in a line, a time sequence, or even just an abstract mathematical co= ncept.

=C2=A0 Or am I missing the subject of your = query?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ---gejyspa


= On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 2:52 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name= @gmail.com> wrote:
This differs with other usage where lamji4 was {lo ka ce'u ce&= #39;u purci}.

{la potygug cu maji la sangug lo ka st= uzi vau lo ka ce'u ce'u stici vo'a}?

2014-05-08 20:29 GMT+0= 4:00 Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>:
On Thursday, May 08, 2014 15:47:45 Gleki Arxokuna wrote= :
> what would be the most useful example of lamji with the four places fi= lled
> in?

Don't know about the *most* useful, but here's one:

la .potygug. lamji la .sangug. lo ka stuzi lo stici

The definition doesn't clarify whether lo ve lamji cu farna lo lamji lo= se
lamji gi'ikau farna lo se lamji lo lamji.

mu'omi'e .pier.
--
La sal en el mar es m=C3=A1s que en la sangre.
Le sel dans la mer est plus que dans le sang.

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