Received: from mail-wg0-f56.google.com ([74.125.82.56]:39420) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XUUTK-00084o-SB for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:41:39 -0700 Received: by mail-wg0-f56.google.com with SMTP id b13sf18197wgh.1 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:41:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=sAkNqr8O17vtqtGz0+5nGCb0DyoN1SPf0xBL+8cLGoo=; b=sIL2NXRqHc+Btw/Q6RoVThRkl5/FRCMnVAvJfwReXQolibfde78zWx8kKglaA9IMvr VbP+0l5g46XmlUPKP/BITaqsz61eACbTDUlStsPvQyhbXE8L+AekBTuuIE32eeASQLy8 h5WTn/9LEI8DVTbRuFYkkWTFyZ/ujdsaVjS89TeNCgYK9ByDp+T3k3z6B/ty474tb/wQ Q/XbObr4cXQ7XypVjW3ad8YHa96H6jiqeXGZMQK2oP0X1VBaJr2MGTqmKgBbR/uLSO8N 4wxCCmbgRt1Cepr9wwwKOkQJyFVLt6qvF3ADu8jjbeIyqBYWTI1Z0wld8fUN0UYZAl/8 kgiQ== X-Received: by 10.152.246.2 with SMTP id xs2mr6562lac.7.1411018891813; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:41:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.37.99 with SMTP id x3ls182024laj.90.gmail; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:41:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.199.169 with SMTP id jl9mr3531lbc.24.1411018888744; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22b.google.com (mail-wg0-x22b.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ht8si75052wib.1.2014.09.17.22.41.28 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b; Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id x12so317433wgg.14 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:41:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.200.137 with SMTP id js9mr2247983wjc.90.1411018888610; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.89.193 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Sep 2014 22:41:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 09:41:28 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] how to use {fancu}? From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bb70c74a089750503506ffc X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 11606 --047d7bb70c74a089750503506ffc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-09-17 19:23 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:35 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> How to say e.g. "f(x) =3D (x + 1) (x =E2=88=92 1)" ? Should I use {fancu= } for that? >> If not how to use {fancu}? >> I want an example with all places of {fancu} filled. >> >> fancu =3D x1 is a function/single-valued mapping from domain x2 to range= x3 >> defined by expression/rule x4. >> >> >> E.g "f(x) =3D (x + 1) (x =E2=88=92 1)" where x>1 >> >> fy fancu xy lo du'u xy zmadu li pa vau li vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei x= y >> vu'u pa ve'o ? >> > > We need to distinguish three cases: > > (1) example of what the gimste says it means > (2) example of what "fancu" ought to mean > (3) example of actual usage > > If you want (1), you could say: > > fy fancu lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li pa lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li no me'o > vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy vu'u pa ve'o > > You want "me'o", not "li", for an expression. I'm assuming you meant it a= s > a function on the reals and not, for example on the integers. The domain = of > the function is the set of values for which the function is defined. The > range is the set from which the function takes its values. In this case i= t > could also have been all the reals, even though the function never takes > negative values. lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li no is the image, which has to = be > included in the range. It doesn't say anywhere that "xy" is the variable > that will take its values from the domain, but using x as a variable is o= f > course a very common convention. > > As for (2): It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to have a place > for expression x4 in addition to a place for the function. It's as if > "klama" was defined as "x1 goes to x2 ... and has name x6". The place for > the range is also redundant. It's as if "jalge" was defined as "x1 is the > result of x2 among potential results x3", or something like that. "fancu" > ought to have just two places: "x1 is a function of x2". Your example wou= ld > be: "fy pe xy du li vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy vu'u pa ve'o" > Don't you think {pe} is extremely hackish here? > , which doesn't use "fancu", but you could also say fy fancu xy noi > mrena'u gi'e zmadu li pa" > And this doesn't use the formula. Still I think "f(x) is the name for "(x+1)(x-1)"" is a useful predicate. > . A more general use would be: > > lo jdima be lo seldi'a cu fancu lo ni sy se sabji jo'u lo ni sy se cpedu > "The price of a good is a function of its supply and demand." > This just needs a separate brivla. > Finally (3), usage, is all over the place. An example from Tatoeba (just > because it's the first hit for "cu fancu" that I get from Google): > > ro da poi fancu lo nuncfa cu fancu lo nunfa'o > Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation. > > But I don't really see how "fancu" can be "subject to". To me that says > that every thing that depends on a start, depends on having (or being?) a= n > end. "Being subject to" is more like "lifri". I would say: "ro da poi lif= ri > lo ka cfari cu lifri lo ka tolcfa". > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. 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2014-09-17 19:23 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.co= m>:

= On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:35 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name= @gmail.com> wrote:
How t= o say e.g. "f(x) =3D (x=E2=80=89+=E2=80=891)=E2=80=89(x=E2=80=89=E2=88= =92=E2=80=891)" ? Should I use {fancu} for that? If not how to use {fa= ncu}?
I want an example with all places of {fancu} filled.
fancu =3D x1 is a function/single-valued mapping from dom= ain x2 to range x3 defined by expression/rule x4.


<= /div>
E.g "f(x) =3D (x=E2=80=89+=E2=80=891)=E2=80=89(x=E2=80=89=E2= =88=92=E2=80=891)" where x>1

fy fancu xy l= o du'u xy zmadu li pa vau li vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei x= y vu'u pa ve'o ?

We need to distinguish three cases:

(1) exam= ple of what the gimste says it=C2=A0means
(2) example of what &qu= ot;fancu" ought to mean
(3) example of actual usage

If you want (1), you could say:

=C2=A0fy fancu lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li pa lo'i mrena&= #39;u poi zmadu li no me'o vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy = vu'u pa ve'o

You want "me'o= ", not "li", for an expression. I'm assuming you meant i= t as a function on the reals and not, for example on the integers. The doma= in of the function is the set of values for which the function is defined. = The range is the set from which the function takes its values. In this case= it could also have been all the reals, even though the function never take= s negative values. lo'i mrena'u poi zmadu li no is the image, which= has to be included in the range. It doesn't say anywhere that "xy= " is the variable that will take its values from the domain, but using= x as a variable is of course a very common convention.

As for (2): It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me to have a= place for expression x4 in addition to a place for the function. It's = as if "klama" was defined as "x1 goes to x2 ... and has name= x6". The place for the range is also redundant. It's as if "= jalge" was defined as "x1 is the result of x2 among potential res= ults x3", or something like that. "fancu" ought to have just= two places: "x1 is a function of x2". Your example would be: &qu= ot;fy pe xy du li vei xy su'i pa ve'o pi'i vei xy vu'u pa v= e'o"

Don&#= 39;t you think {pe} is extremely hackish here?
=C2=A0
, which doesn't use "fancu", but yo= u could also say fy fancu xy noi mrena'u gi'e zmadu li pa"
And this doesn't use the formula.=
Still I think "f(x) is the name for "(x+1)(x-1)"&= quot; is a useful predicate.

=C2=A0
. A more general use would be:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0lo jdima be lo seldi'a cu fancu lo ni sy se sabji jo'u = lo ni sy se cpedu
=C2=A0"The price of a good is a function o= f its supply and demand."
This just needs a separate brivla.


Finally (3), usage, is all over the = place. An example from Tatoeba (just because it's the first hit for &qu= ot;cu fancu" that I get from Google):

=C2=A0 ro da= poi fancu lo nuncfa cu fancu lo nunfa'o
=C2=A0 Whatever is subject = to origination is all subject to cessation.

But I don= 9;t really see how "fancu" can be "subject to". To me t= hat says that every thing that depends on a start, depends on having (or be= ing?) an end. "Being subject to" is more like "lifri". = I would say: "ro da poi lifri lo ka cfari cu lifri lo ka tolcfa".=

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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