Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 13:04:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] oi bei
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On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 2:59:21 PM UTC-4, Ian Johnson wrote:
>
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:26 AM, TR NS <tran...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Considering the reasoning, it seems to me that the most concise solution 
>> would be to have two different cmavo for {be}. One that only takes a single 
>> sumti, and another that can take any number but has to be terminated. 
>>
>> This would be harder to learn, and it would require an amount of 
> forethought that isn't really worth the amount of word savings it would 
> provide. 
>
> Also, {bei} can be very useful for terminator elision. Another artificial 
> example:
>
> {.i broda be lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo bei ko'a}
>
> Writing that with {be*}, you would need:
>
> {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei kei kei 
> kei ko'a}
>
> which is both much more verbose and much more difficult to read.
>
>
Not so much difficult to read as it is to say b/c you have keep count of 
all those {nu}. It's easy as long as there is a wa to close them all at 
once as you point out. But as it stands, conversely one has:

    {.i broda be lo nu brode bei lo nu brodi bei lo nu brodo bei lo nu 
brodo bei ko'a}

Which is quite verbose. And then what happens if anther {be} shows up?

    {.i broda be lo nu brode bei lo nu brodi be lo nu brodo bei lo nu brodo 
bei ko'a}
 
While it is convenient that closing a previous clause (of a different 
selma'o) can close all those in between, I don't think it should be a 
defacto substitute for actually having an explicit means of doing that, 
e.g. with the example:

    {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei kei 
kei kei ko'a}

shouldn't there be something like {vau} but allows one to specify the 
cmavo. For the sake of discussion, let's call it {vau*}.

    {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo vau* kei 
ko'a}

Actually I would prefer {vau* nu}, but in either case, it is much more 
explicit this way.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 2:59:21 PM UTC-4,=
 Ian Johnson wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;mar=
gin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:26 AM, TR =
NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfu=
scated-mailto=3D"5T2Pb32b8DcJ" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';ret=
urn true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D'javascript:';return true;">tran...@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Considering the reasoning, it see=
ms to me that the most concise solution would be to have two different cmav=
o for {be}. One that only takes a single sumti, and another that can take a=
ny number but has to be terminated.&nbsp;</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span=
><br></span></div></blockquote><div>This would be harder to learn, and it w=
ould require an amount of forethought that isn't really worth the amount of=
 word savings it would provide. <br><br>Also, {bei} can be very useful for =
terminator elision. Another artificial example:<br><br></div><div>{.i broda=
 be lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo bei ko'a}<br><br></div>=
<div>Writing that with {be*}, you would need:<br><br>{.i broda be* lo nu br=
ode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei kei kei kei ko'a}<br><br></div>=
<div>which is both much more verbose and much more difficult to read.<br><b=
r></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not so much diff=
icult to read as it is to say b/c you have keep count of all those {nu}. It=
's easy as long as there is a wa to close them all at once as you point out=
. But as it stands, conversely one has:</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nb=
sp; {.i broda be lo nu brode bei lo nu brodi bei lo nu brodo bei lo nu brod=
o bei ko'a}</div><div><br></div><div>Which is quite verbose. And then what =
happens if anther {be} shows up?</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; {.i=
 broda be lo nu brode bei lo nu brodi be lo nu brodo bei lo nu brodo bei ko=
'a}<br></div><div>&nbsp;<br></div><div>While it is convenient that closing =
a previous clause (of a different selma'o) can close all those in between, =
I don't think it should be a defacto substitute for actually having an expl=
icit means of doing that, e.g. with the example:</div><div><br></div><div>&=
nbsp; &nbsp; {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo =
kei kei kei kei ko'a}<br></div><div><br></div><div>shouldn't there be somet=
hing like {vau} but allows one to specify the cmavo. For the sake of discus=
sion, let's call it {vau*}.</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; {.i brod=
a be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo vau* kei ko'a}<br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Actually I would prefer {vau* nu}, but in either cas=
e, it is much more explicit this way.</div><div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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