Received: from mail-lb0-f188.google.com ([209.85.217.188]:35726) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XX1bF-00046r-PX for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:28:22 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f188.google.com with SMTP id n15sf11401lbi.15 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:28:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=aqZx63341/8mE5LCUGEXUegdyq5soF6xGL2q/3o6btg=; b=R6oRLjuoBE54Oza1SC9KpEZgH7nw/6zQRJXm12lgtNt1NTU4RpeVYwNMVhm++7MM9R +6UY/3KeUsj7AMbQgW2QRXJAEDE9flvrbIh5QC1cvEAauGj8hL1OgccmCd4jmZIhSQiM ZkefTMKJpqO98qIaK6hWSnUw+AT3xTIazD6mR2zMYx2oncVLnER+TQ+3q1kTSSQKI8wf sq+2OYUjxfUIcfpC9MXkpzlBXK1ncTpdQCNB29ZiRBkB9b1Nv2jpTZudr+zs4ZWL2MVO rtQFV0eX3mRZLjsGOa47zZQ7TNcZ9OsuHACVpQkHwM0xtojdm81SoumnrBCFVmeqccRf nOBA== X-Received: by 10.180.182.83 with SMTP id ec19mr190539wic.16.1411622890524; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:28:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.180.97.231 with SMTP id ed7ls352719wib.3.gmail; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:28:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.181.25.225 with SMTP id it1mr327169wid.0.1411622889466; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22a.google.com (mail-wg0-x22a.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n6si467587wiv.0.2014.09.24.22.28.09 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a; Received: by mail-wg0-f42.google.com with SMTP id a1so6763135wgh.13 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:28:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.95.8 with SMTP id dg8mr13277019wjb.1.1411622889359; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.175.167 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 22:28:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:28:09 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] oi bei From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc0f56e0909e0503dd1021 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 9120 --047d7bdc0f56e0909e0503dd1021 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2014-09-25 0:04 GMT+04:00 TR NS : > > > On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 2:59:21 PM UTC-4, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:26 AM, TR NS wrote: >> >>> >>> Considering the reasoning, it seems to me that the most concise solution >>> would be to have two different cmavo for {be}. One that only takes a single >>> sumti, and another that can take any number but has to be terminated. >>> >>> This would be harder to learn, and it would require an amount of >> forethought that isn't really worth the amount of word savings it would >> provide. >> >> Also, {bei} can be very useful for terminator elision. Another artificial >> example: >> >> {.i broda be lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo bei ko'a} >> >> Writing that with {be*}, you would need: >> >> {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei kei kei >> kei ko'a} >> >> which is both much more verbose and much more difficult to read. >> >> > Not so much difficult to read as it is to say b/c you have keep count of > all those {nu}. > TR NS, if you feel that it would work for you, invent this cmavo and start using it! It'd be also nice if you could define the syntax of this new cmavo in PEG but we all believe that it wouldn't be ambiguous syntactically so defining in PEG is not a must. What doesn't work for others might work for you and then more people. > It's easy as long as there is a wa to close them all at once as you point > out. But as it stands, conversely one has: > > {.i broda be lo nu brode bei lo nu brodi bei lo nu brodo bei lo nu > brodo bei ko'a} > > Which is quite verbose. And then what happens if anther {be} shows up? > > {.i broda be lo nu brode bei lo nu brodi be lo nu brodo bei lo nu > brodo bei ko'a} > > While it is convenient that closing a previous clause (of a different > selma'o) can close all those in between, I don't think it should be a > defacto substitute for actually having an explicit means of doing that, > e.g. with the example: > > {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei kei > kei kei ko'a} > > shouldn't there be something like {vau} but allows one to specify the > cmavo. For the sake of discussion, let's call it {vau*}. > > {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo vau* kei > ko'a} > > Actually I would prefer {vau* nu}, but in either case, it is much more > explicit this way. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bdc0f56e0909e0503dd1021 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2014-09-25 0:04 GMT+04:00 TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>:=


On Wednesday, S= eptember 24, 2014 2:59:21 PM UTC-4, Ian Johnson wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:26 AM, TR NS <= tran...@gmail.com> wrote:

Considering the reas= oning, it seems to me that the most concise solution would be to have two d= ifferent cmavo for {be}. One that only takes a single sumti, and another th= at can take any number but has to be terminated.=C2=A0

This would be harder to l= earn, and it would require an amount of forethought that isn't really w= orth the amount of word savings it would provide.

Also, {bei} can b= e very useful for terminator elision. Another artificial example:

{.i broda be lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo bei k= o'a}

Writing that with {be*}, you would need:

= {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei kei kei k= ei ko'a}

which is both much more verbose and much mor= e difficult to read.


<= /div>
Not so much difficult to read as it is to say b/c you have= keep count of all those {nu}.

= TR NS, if you feel that it would work for you, invent this cmavo and start = using it!

It'd be also nice if you could defin= e the syntax of this new cmavo in PEG but we all believe that it wouldn'= ;t be ambiguous syntactically so defining in PEG is not a must.
<= br>
What doesn't work for others might work for you and then = more people.
=C2=A0
It's easy as long as there is a wa to close them all at = once as you point out. But as it stands, conversely one has:

=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 {.i broda be lo nu brode bei lo nu brodi bei lo nu= brodo bei lo nu brodo bei ko'a}

Which is quit= e verbose. And then what happens if anther {be} shows up?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 {.i broda be lo nu brode bei lo nu brodi be lo nu bro= do bei lo nu brodo bei ko'a}
=C2=A0
While i= t is convenient that closing a previous clause (of a different selma'o)= can close all those in between, I don't think it should be a defacto s= ubstitute for actually having an explicit means of doing that, e.g. with th= e example:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 {.i brod= a be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei kei kei kei ko= 9;a}

shouldn't there be something l= ike {vau} but allows one to specify the cmavo. For the sake of discussion, = let's call it {vau*}.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 {.i broda = be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo vau* kei ko'a}
<= /div>

Actually I would prefer {vau* nu}, but in either c= ase, it is much more explicit this way.

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--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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