Received: from mail-ie0-f191.google.com ([209.85.223.191]:47800) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XXJdy-0000NO-Uw for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:44:24 -0700 Received: by mail-ie0-f191.google.com with SMTP id tr6sf1763250ieb.8 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:44:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=u4vXQKqEOCTBF4ySgJCzGg0wH2qejutMDyS1aCZfAjo=; b=SNXQW6HH5/FuDJ1oEFFniKkj/i5gR/emi/f4yZHFVCgKGKWivfzM+XlZoP4TTGPciy ykdvdiyFzBSYZNeTf3yees8FTTZ44PTYAuTvywHFJh56mOuHs+VoLUeIJXZYul7D95/P Jv9zrxutuNQAr5xCFCTdPu/ybWyvOBz8rH7Jo2mPOHgk1L3l2RdjVbR4TaWi0bv+f1Xl 73SCKqwXua+etU4XwmYb9a2MUGaKPDpH6DGPwj8zLIqn8z3lqz5Xcwr9cvl2JWGAPuSp rwlT7o8fwGtLWRs+8eVlcBIzEiTeb9hqeAdtR/0j1WwMavHmgdJmHkDxUl4JWBocmAfe Cm7g== X-Received: by 10.50.61.132 with SMTP id p4mr698814igr.1.1411692252636; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:44:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.39.100 with SMTP id o4ls187479igk.26.canary; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:44:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.159.233 with SMTP id xf9mr13118633pab.45.1411692251819; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x232.google.com (mail-oi0-x232.google.com [2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cz12si43396igc.0.2014.09.25.17.44.11 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232; Received: by mail-oi0-f50.google.com with SMTP id a141so7525948oig.37 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:44:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.60.155.230 with SMTP id vz6mr6794827oeb.78.1411692251497; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:44:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.76.82.230 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:43:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Jacob Errington Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 20:43:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] oi bei To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bf0e9502eca740503ed3752 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 12525 --047d7bf0e9502eca740503ed3752 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 There's no post in this thread in particular that this is relevant to, but I wrote a little paper on {be} some time ago and posted it to the list. Now it's on the wiki. You may want to read it, TR, but it's a bit tough. I show that with standard grammar you can get the same effect as bei without bei :) I also explore what {be} really does. In summary, it's a selbri transformer like {se} that constructs a new selbri from an existing one. This is in contrast with selbri constructors like ME, MOI, and NU, which construct selbri from things that aren't selbri. http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Advanced_Place_Structure_Mangling .i mi'e la tsani mu'o On 25 September 2014 01:28, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > > > 2014-09-25 0:04 GMT+04:00 TR NS : > >> >> >> On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 2:59:21 PM UTC-4, Ian Johnson wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:26 AM, TR NS wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Considering the reasoning, it seems to me that the most concise >>>> solution would be to have two different cmavo for {be}. One that only takes >>>> a single sumti, and another that can take any number but has to be >>>> terminated. >>>> >>>> This would be harder to learn, and it would require an amount of >>> forethought that isn't really worth the amount of word savings it would >>> provide. >>> >>> Also, {bei} can be very useful for terminator elision. Another >>> artificial example: >>> >>> {.i broda be lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo bei ko'a} >>> >>> Writing that with {be*}, you would need: >>> >>> {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei kei >>> kei kei ko'a} >>> >>> which is both much more verbose and much more difficult to read. >>> >>> >> Not so much difficult to read as it is to say b/c you have keep count of >> all those {nu}. >> > > TR NS, if you feel that it would work for you, invent this cmavo and start > using it! > > It'd be also nice if you could define the syntax of this new cmavo in PEG > but we all believe that it wouldn't be ambiguous syntactically so defining > in PEG is not a must. > > What doesn't work for others might work for you and then more people. > > >> It's easy as long as there is a wa to close them all at once as you point >> out. But as it stands, conversely one has: >> >> {.i broda be lo nu brode bei lo nu brodi bei lo nu brodo bei lo nu >> brodo bei ko'a} >> >> Which is quite verbose. And then what happens if anther {be} shows up? >> >> {.i broda be lo nu brode bei lo nu brodi be lo nu brodo bei lo nu >> brodo bei ko'a} >> >> While it is convenient that closing a previous clause (of a different >> selma'o) can close all those in between, I don't think it should be a >> defacto substitute for actually having an explicit means of doing that, >> e.g. with the example: >> >> {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei kei >> kei kei ko'a} >> >> shouldn't there be something like {vau} but allows one to specify the >> cmavo. For the sake of discussion, let's call it {vau*}. >> >> {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo vau* >> kei ko'a} >> >> Actually I would prefer {vau* nu}, but in either case, it is much more >> explicit this way. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bf0e9502eca740503ed3752 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There's no post in this thread in particular that this= is relevant to, but I wrote a little paper on {be} some time ago and poste= d it to the list. Now it's on the wiki. You may want to read it, TR, bu= t it's a bit tough. I show that with standard grammar you can get the s= ame effect as bei without bei :) I also explore what {be} really does. In s= ummary, it's a selbri transformer like {se} that constructs a new selbr= i from an existing one. This is in contrast with selbri constructors like M= E, MOI, and NU, which construct selbri from things that aren't selbri.<= div>

.i mi'e la = tsani mu'o

On 25 September 2014 01:28, Gleki Arxokuna <<= a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.= name@gmail.com> wrote:


= 2014-09-25 0:04 GMT+04:00 TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>:


On= Wednesday, September 24, 2014 2:59:21 PM UTC-4, Ian Johnson wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:26 AM, TR NS <<= a>tran...@gmail.com> wrote:

Considering the re= asoning, it seems to me that the most concise solution would be to have two= different cmavo for {be}. One that only takes a single sumti, and another = that can take any number but has to be terminated.=C2=A0

This would be harder to = learn, and it would require an amount of forethought that isn't really = worth the amount of word savings it would provide.

Also, {bei} can = be very useful for terminator elision. Another artificial example:

<= /div>
{.i broda be lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo bei = ko'a}

Writing that with {be*}, you would need:
{.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei kei kei = kei ko'a}

which is both much more verbose and much mo= re difficult to read.


=
Not so much difficult to read as it is to say b/c you hav= e keep count of all those {nu}.

TR NS, if you feel that it would work for you, invent this cmavo an= d start using it!

It'd be also nice if you cou= ld define the syntax of this new cmavo in PEG but we all believe that it wo= uldn't be ambiguous syntactically so defining in PEG is not a must.

What doesn't work for others might work for you a= nd then more people.
=C2=A0
It's easy as long as there is a = wa to close them all at once as you point out. But as it stands, conversely= one has:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 {.i broda be lo nu brode b= ei lo nu brodi bei lo nu brodo bei lo nu brodo bei ko'a}

=
Which is quite verbose. And then what happens if anther {be} sho= ws up?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 {.i broda be lo nu brode bei = lo nu brodi be lo nu brodo bei lo nu brodo bei ko'a}
=C2= =A0
While it is convenient that closing a previous clause (of= a different selma'o) can close all those in between, I don't think= it should be a defacto substitute for actually having an explicit means of= doing that, e.g. with the example:

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo kei ke= i kei kei ko'a}

shouldn't there= be something like {vau} but allows one to specify the cmavo. For the sake = of discussion, let's call it {vau*}.

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 {.i broda be* lo nu brode lo nu brodi lo nu brodo lo nu brodo vau* k= ei ko'a}

Actually I would prefer {vau* nu}= , but in either case, it is much more explicit this way.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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