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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 22:55:21 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] precise tenru
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> In general about precise tanru though, I have a system of interpretation
> schemes. Tanru fit broadly into three categories:
>
> 1) Compositional tanru (interpreted with the Flipping Principle)
> 2) "and" tanru, interpreted as if a {je} were present
> 3) Metaphorical tanru
>
> An example of the kind is "certu mutce", which I would interpret as short
> for "mutce lo ni certu". These are the tanru that give rise to fully
> regular lujvo, e.g. "cretce = x1 is very skilled at doing x2 ..."
>

Right, but... What is the place structure of "certu mutce"?

A: mi certu mutce
B; do certu mutce ma
A: ???mi certu mutce lo ni certu ...

It doesn't make much sense to me. That's why tanru of this kind make me
uncomfortable. They either don't mean what we take them to mean, or else
the idea that tanru (at least those of this kind) inherit their place
structure directly from their tertau needs to be revisited.

This is also why I don't agree with the notion that it is tanru that "give
rise to fully regular lujvo". Lujvo don't come from tanru, unless the place
structure of tanru is not that of their tertau.


> "and"-tanru are essentially adjectives as in English: "barda zdani" or
> "pelxu bolci". Of course, you could try to interpret these with another
> scheme instead, but since they're tanru, context and common sense are
> always of the essence.
>

I think this is true as a first approximation, but it doesn't really
explain everything because "barda zdani" is not the same as "zdani barda",
"pelxu bolci" is not the same as "bolci pelxu", and so on, so there's more
to it than a simple conjunction, which should be commutative.


> The final category is hard to come up with examples for, but it's
> essentially a trashcan category, when the other schemes fail in context.
>

I suppose things like "tsani blanu"? These can probably be included in the
first category as well, except that the relationship with the seltau is
less obvious and doesn't come from just filling a place of the tertau.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Jacob Errington <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:nictytan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nictytan@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D""><div><br><=
/div></span><div>In general about precise tanru though, I have a system of =
interpretation schemes. Tanru fit broadly into three categories:</div><div>=
<br></div><div>1) Compositional tanru (interpreted with the Flipping Princi=
ple)</div><div>2) &quot;and&quot; tanru, interpreted as if a {je} were pres=
ent</div><div>3) Metaphorical tanru</div><div><br></div><div>An example of =
the kind is &quot;certu mutce&quot;, which I would interpret as short for &=
quot;mutce lo ni certu&quot;. These are the tanru that give rise to fully r=
egular lujvo, e.g. &quot;cretce =3D x1 is very skilled at doing x2 ...&quot=
;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right, but... Wha=
t is the place structure of &quot;certu mutce&quot;?=C2=A0</div><div><br></=
div><div>A: mi certu mutce</div><div>B; do certu mutce ma</div><div>A: ???m=
i certu mutce lo ni certu ...</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>It doesn&#39;t mak=
e much sense to me. That&#39;s why tanru of this kind make me uncomfortable=
. They either don&#39;t mean what we take them to mean, or else the idea th=
at tanru (at least those of this kind) inherit their place structure direct=
ly from their tertau needs to be revisited.</div><div><br></div><div>This i=
s also why I don&#39;t agree with the notion that it is tanru that &quot;gi=
ve rise to fully regular lujvo&quot;. Lujvo don&#39;t come from tanru, unle=
ss the place structure of tanru is not that of their tertau.</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>&quot;and&quot;-tanru are essentia=
lly adjectives as in English: &quot;barda zdani&quot; or &quot;pelxu bolci&=
quot;. Of course, you could try to interpret these with another scheme inst=
ead, but since they&#39;re tanru, context and common sense are always of th=
e essence.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think =
this is true as a first approximation, but it doesn&#39;t really explain ev=
erything because &quot;barda zdani&quot; is not the same as &quot;zdani bar=
da&quot;, &quot;pelxu bolci&quot; is not the same as &quot;bolci pelxu&quot=
;, and so on, so there&#39;s more to it than a simple conjunction, which sh=
ould be commutative.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=
The final category is hard to come up with examples for, but it&#39;s essen=
tially a trashcan category, when the other schemes fail in context.=C2=A0</=
div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I suppose things lik=
e &quot;tsani blanu&quot;? These can probably be included in the first cate=
gory as well, except that the relationship with the seltau is less obvious =
and doesn&#39;t come from just filling a place of the tertau.</div><div><br=
></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></di=
v>

<p></p>

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