Received: from mail-vc0-f192.google.com ([209.85.220.192]:35505) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XXLhl-0001dH-94 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:56:28 -0700 Received: by mail-vc0-f192.google.com with SMTP id hq11sf8293vcb.9 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:56:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7ADws/sfC5R56A8RSc8YEIqZMgYETb0OXnvYM1a8v1o=; b=ZWQ1CgQHEwbI1+qlJ/uJvFq/lNAsOUwLAVEfCc2F+XILp02miDLdSMZ1e2k1onp2Jp kYgzT74QH4laaJbuTAnL0FtK4grj1tTBzqOZgsA1m6LvNwGoZrD64UGi0CuSLjHtkGs/ hur3zzqzTLpENhIZ/lW7JsdMi4iPnXko2KruoEpucXUl4PRmBeESWRxGcfNqwr+ADPUT yfaj1dBo3j9QTxq910bRclOUdUerkTMy3yWkqoKXb7+Q7eLdPCZIgV+Q2pWJnxKT+wjF 04cnMhjT/0cilMkHLfl3/loFPNsv9LKSQ6ebRJmZW55Dzl4WO9XdO0eqHvhP1a4rb3mt IkBg== X-Received: by 10.51.17.104 with SMTP id gd8mr708901igd.7.1411700174702; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:56:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.111.226 with SMTP id il2ls235722igb.32.canary; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:56:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.33.18 with SMTP id n18mr30849277igi.8.1411700173671; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-x233.google.com (mail-ob0-x233.google.com [2607:f8b0:4003:c01::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s3si54323ign.2.2014.09.25.19.56.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c01::233; Received: by mail-ob0-f179.google.com with SMTP id wm4so6289055obc.38 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:56:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.60.74.39 with SMTP id q7mr18217702oev.72.1411700172864; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:56:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.76.82.230 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:55:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9bc279e1-7b02-4bce-8290-377cded6aa0e@googlegroups.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 22:55:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] precise tenru To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c01::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11348eee5546ef0503ef0fe2 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 10434 --001a11348eee5546ef0503ef0fe2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 25 September 2014 21:55, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrot= e: > > On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Jacob Errington > wrote: > >> >> In general about precise tanru though, I have a system of interpretation >> schemes. Tanru fit broadly into three categories: >> >> 1) Compositional tanru (interpreted with the Flipping Principle) >> 2) "and" tanru, interpreted as if a {je} were present >> 3) Metaphorical tanru >> >> An example of the kind is "certu mutce", which I would interpret as shor= t >> for "mutce lo ni certu". These are the tanru that give rise to fully >> regular lujvo, e.g. "cretce =3D x1 is very skilled at doing x2 ..." >> > > Right, but... What is the place structure of "certu mutce"? > > A: mi certu mutce > B; do certu mutce ma > A: ???mi certu mutce lo ni certu ... > > It doesn't make much sense to me. That's why tanru of this kind make me > uncomfortable. They either don't mean what we take them to mean, or else > the idea that tanru (at least those of this kind) inherit their place > structure directly from their tertau needs to be revisited. > > The place structure becomes sort of strange, you're right. If an explicit x2 is supplied, then I'd be forced to use a different interpretation scheme= . > This is also why I don't agree with the notion that it is tanru that "giv= e > rise to fully regular lujvo". Lujvo don't come from tanru, unless the pla= ce > structure of tanru is not that of their tertau. > All that I mean is that if we change the tanru elements into rafsi, in that order, we usually get jvajvo. pipno pilno certu mutce -> pi'orplicretce -> x1 mutce lo ni ce'u certu lo ka ce'u pilno lo pipno -> "x1 is an expert pianist ..." I write ellipsis because if someone were to actually define this lujvo, then they would need to (somewhat arbitrarily) decide on which other places are included. > > >> "and"-tanru are essentially adjectives as in English: "barda zdani" or >> "pelxu bolci". Of course, you could try to interpret these with another >> scheme instead, but since they're tanru, context and common sense are >> always of the essence. >> > > I think this is true as a first approximation, but it doesn't really > explain everything because "barda zdani" is not the same as "zdani barda"= , > "pelxu bolci" is not the same as "bolci pelxu", and so on, so there's mor= e > to it than a simple conjunction, which should be commutative. > > Strictly speaking, it's not {je}. There's more to it, as you rightfully point out. "and"-tanru of this kind are usually asymmetrical. > The final category is hard to come up with examples for, but it's >> essentially a trashcan category, when the other schemes fail in context. >> > > I suppose things like "tsani blanu"? These can probably be included in th= e > first category as well, except that the relationship with the seltau is > less obvious and doesn't come from just filling a place of the tertau. > > Right. Metaphorical tanru can be generalized to tanru of the first type, but with a less straightforward composition, possibly including many omitted other selbri. .i mi'e la tsani mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11348eee5546ef0503ef0fe2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 2= 5 September 2014 21:55, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com= > wrote:

<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Th= u, Sep 25, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Jacob Errington <nictytan@gmail.com>= wrote:

In general about precise tanru though, I have a system of interpretation= schemes. Tanru fit broadly into three categories:

1) Compositional tanru (interpreted with the Flipping Principle)
2) "and" tanru, interpreted as if a {je} were present
= 3) Metaphorical tanru

An example of the kind is &q= uot;certu mutce", which I would interpret as short for "mutce lo = ni certu". These are the tanru that give rise to fully regular lujvo, = e.g. "cretce =3D x1 is very skilled at doing x2 ..."
<= /div>

Right, but... What is th= e place structure of "certu mutce"?=C2=A0

A: mi certu mutce
B; do certu mutce ma
A: ???mi certu= mutce lo ni certu ...
=C2=A0
It doesn't make much = sense to me. That's why tanru of this kind make me uncomfortable. They = either don't mean what we take them to mean, or else the idea that tanr= u (at least those of this kind) inherit their place structure directly from= their tertau needs to be revisited.

=

The place structure becomes sort of strang= e, you're right. If an explicit x2 is supplied, then I'd be forced = to use a different interpretation scheme.
=C2=A0
This is also why I don't agree with th= e notion that it is tanru that "give rise to fully regular lujvo"= . Lujvo don't come from tanru, unless the place structure of tanru is n= ot that of their tertau.

All that I mean is that if we chan= ge the tanru elements into rafsi, in that order, we usually get jvajvo.
pipno pilno certu mutce -> pi'orplicretce -> x1 mutce lo n= i ce'u certu lo ka ce'u pilno lo pipno -> "x1 is an expert = pianist ..."
I write ellipsis because if someone were to act= ually define this lujvo, then they would need to (somewhat arbitrarily) dec= ide on which other places are included.

=C2=A0
=C2=A0
"and"-tanru are essentially adjectives as i= n English: "barda zdani" or "pelxu bolci". Of course, y= ou could try to interpret these with another scheme instead, but since they= 're tanru, context and common sense are always of the essence.

I think this is true= as a first approximation, but it doesn't really explain everything bec= ause "barda zdani" is not the same as "zdani barda", &q= uot;pelxu bolci" is not the same as "bolci pelxu", and so on= , so there's more to it than a simple conjunction, which should be comm= utative.
=C2=A0

Strictly speaking, it's not {je}. There&= #39;s more to it, as you rightfully point out. "and"-tanru of thi= s kind are usually asymmetrical.
=C2=A0
The final category = is hard to come up with examples for, but it's essentially a trashcan c= ategory, when the other schemes fail in context.=C2=A0

I suppose things like "tsan= i blanu"? These can probably be included in the first category as well= , except that the relationship with the seltau is less obvious and doesn= 9;t come from just filling a place of the tertau.


Right. Metaphorical tanru can= be generalized to tanru of the first type, but with a less straightforward= composition, possibly including many omitted other selbri.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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