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Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 00:21:46 +0100
From: Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: White men can't jump.
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On 04/12/2014 21:46, la durka wrote:
>
>
> El mi=C3=A9rcoles, 3 de diciembre de 2014 21:48:11 UTC-5, Pierre Abbat=20
> escribi=C3=B3:
>
>     On Wednesday, December 03, 2014 13:01:26 la durka wrote:
>     > However (again), that leaves a subtle problem with scope. {na}
>     scopes over
>     > the {ki'u} clause, so this says "It's not true that (I can jump
>     because I'm
>     > a white man)", i.e. "Being a white man is not the reason that I
>     can jump".
>     > It should be flipped to get the correct scoping, as in {ki'u
>     da'i lo nu mi
>     > kapli nakni kei mi na kakne lo ka plipe}, or you can split it
>     into two
>     > jufra as {mi na kakne lo ka plipe .i da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni
>     cu krinu [lo
>     > du'u go'i]}.
>     > (Sorry. Negation can make things complicated.)
>
>     The order of terms doesn't affect the scope of {na}; it negates
>     the whole
>     bridi. It does affect the scope of {naku}, which is a term (but
>     not a sumti).
>     {naku} negates from there to the end of the bridi. So you can say
>     {ki'u da'i
>     lo nu mi kapli nakni kei mi naku kakne lo ka plipe}.
>
>
> Most people these days seem to treat {na selbri} as {naku selbri},=20
> essentially.
>
If {na} were to behave as any regular selbritcita, {na broda} would be=20
synonymous with {broda be naku} and {kai'u naku broda kei}. This way, it=20
would have minimal scope.
I've never used the maximal scope interpretation (I find it=20
counterintuitive with regard to the regular selbritcita paradigm), and=20
do not remember having witnessed it to be much used in current usage.

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o

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    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 04/12/2014 21:46, la durka wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite=3D"mid:5386231c-3080-47eb-8416-bb20548ab60e@googlegroups.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
        <br>
        El mi=C3=A9rcoles, 3 de diciembre de 2014 21:48:11 UTC-5, Pierre
        Abbat escribi=C3=B3:
        <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left:
          0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On
          Wednesday, December 03, 2014 13:01:26 la durka wrote:
          <br>
          &gt; However (again), that leaves a subtle problem with scope.
          {na} scopes over
          <br>
          &gt; the {ki'u} clause, so this says "It's not true that (I
          can jump because I'm
          <br>
          &gt; a white man)", i.e. "Being a white man is not the reason
          that I can jump".
          <br>
          &gt; It should be flipped to get the correct scoping, as in
          {ki'u da'i lo nu mi
          <br>
          &gt; kapli nakni kei mi na kakne lo ka plipe}, or you can
          split it into two
          <br>
          &gt; jufra as {mi na kakne lo ka plipe .i da'i lo nu mi kapli
          nakni cu krinu [lo
          <br>
          &gt; du'u go'i]}.
          <br>
          &gt; (Sorry. Negation can make things complicated.)
          <br>
          <br>
          The order of terms doesn't affect the scope of {na}; it
          negates the whole <br>
          bridi. It does affect the scope of {naku}, which is a term
          (but not a sumti). <br>
          {naku} negates from there to the end of the bridi. So you can
          say {ki'u da'i <br>
          lo nu mi kapli nakni kei mi naku kakne lo ka plipe}.
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br>
          Most people these days seem to treat {na selbri} as {naku
          selbri}, essentially. <br>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    If {na} were to behave as any regular selbritcita, {na broda} would
    be synonymous with {broda be naku} and {kai'u naku broda kei}. This
    way, it would have minimal scope.<br>
    I've never used the maximal scope interpretation (I find it
    counterintuitive with regard to the regular selbritcita paradigm),
    and do not remember having witnessed it to be much used in current
    usage.<br>
    <br>
    mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o<br>
  </body>
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