Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 13:01:26 -0800 (PST)
From: la durka <durka42@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: White men can't jump.
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El martes, 2 de diciembre de 2014 21:51:12 UTC-5, ra...@outlook.com=20
escribi=C3=B3:
>
> White men can't jump.
> lo kapli nakni cu na kakne lo nu plipe
>
This one looks good, though in modern usage {kakne} is usually used with=20
{ka} instead of {nu}: {lo kapli nakni cu na kakne lo ka [ce'u] plipe}.=20

> lo kapli nakni na ka'e plipe=20
>

> I can't jump; possibly because I am a white man.
> mi na kakne lo nu plipe ki'u da'i mi lo kapli nakni
>
First, {ki'u} takes one sumti (an abstraction), so the clause should be=20
{ki'u da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni}.
*mi na kakne lo ka plipe ki'u da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni*
However, note that {nu} abstractions encapsulate an entire bridi, so to get=
=20
the {ki'u} outside of the abstraction, where it belongs, you need to=20
terminate the abstraction with {kei} (or {ku}, or {vau}).
*mi na kakne lo ka plipe kei ki'u da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni*
However (again), that leaves a subtle problem with scope. {na} scopes over=
=20
the {ki'u} clause, so this says "It's not true that (I can jump because I'm=
=20
a white man)", i.e. "Being a white man is not the reason that I can jump".=
=20
It should be flipped to get the correct scoping, as in {ki'u da'i lo nu mi=
=20
kapli nakni kei mi na kakne lo ka plipe}, or you can split it into two=20
jufra as {mi na kakne lo ka plipe .i da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni cu krinu [lo=
=20
du'u go'i]}.
(Sorry. Negation can make things complicated.)

>
> Are these translations correct?
> xu le xe fanva drani=20
>
> In the second sentence I want to indicate that I don't actually know why =
I=20
> am unable to jump;=20
> however, it could be because I'm a white man.
>
> ki'e
>

je'e mu'o mi'e la durkavore
=20

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>El martes, 2 de diciembre de 2014 21:51:12 UTC-5, =
ra...@outlook.com escribi=C3=B3:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">White men can't jump.<br>lo kapli nakni cu na kakne lo n=
u plipe<br></div></blockquote><div>This one looks good, though in modern us=
age {kakne} is usually used with {ka} instead of {nu}: {lo kapli nakni cu n=
a kakne lo ka [ce'u] plipe}. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t: 1ex;"><div>lo kapli nakni na ka'e plipe <br></div></blockquote><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left:=
 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>I can't jump; poss=
ibly because I am a white man.<br>mi na kakne lo nu plipe ki'u da'i mi lo k=
apli nakni<br></div></blockquote><div>First, {ki'u} takes one sumti (an abs=
traction), so the clause should be {ki'u da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni}.<br><i>=
mi na kakne lo ka plipe ki'u da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni</i><br>However,
 note that {nu} abstractions encapsulate an entire bridi, so to get the=20
{ki'u} outside of the abstraction, where it belongs, you need to=20
terminate the abstraction with {kei} (or {ku}, or {vau}).<br><i>mi na kakne=
 lo ka plipe kei ki'u da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni</i><br>However (again), tha=
t leaves a subtle problem with scope. {na} scopes over the {ki'u} clause, s=
o this says "It's not true that (I can jump because I'm a white man)", i.e.=
 "Being a white man is not the reason that I can jump". It should be flippe=
d to get the correct scoping, as in {ki'u da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni kei mi =
na kakne lo ka plipe}, or you can split it into two jufra as {mi na kakne l=
o ka plipe .i da'i lo nu mi kapli nakni cu krinu [lo du'u go'i]}.<br>(Sorry=
. Negation can make things complicated.)<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>Are these translations correct?<br=
>xu le xe fanva drani <br><br>In the second sentence I want to indicate tha=
t I don't actually know why I am unable to jump; <br>however, it could be b=
ecause I'm a white man.<br><br>ki'e<br></div></blockquote><div><br>je'e mu'=
o mi'e la durkavore<br>&nbsp;<br></div></div>

<p></p>

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