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[2607:f8b0:400d:c01::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s10si163555qcl.3.2015.02.02.20.12.37 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:12:37 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c01::230; Received: by mail-qc0-f176.google.com with SMTP id c9so33764576qcz.7 for ; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:12:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.192.5 with SMTP id do5mr5685268qcb.12.1422936757021; Mon, 02 Feb 2015 20:12:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.176.135 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Feb 2015 20:12:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 23:12:36 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] ganai-gi and if-then From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11337bfcf0b386050e274732 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c01::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.8 X-Spam_score_int: 8 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Sorry, that penultimate parenthetical should have read ("it is rainy") obviously On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > No. You are making a common mistake of confusing the English "if" with > the logician's if. When we are not talking about one thing depending on > another ("if I get my car fixed, then we can go to the movies"), but rather > logical implication (two statements that relate in their truth value) ("if > it is raining, then the ground is wet"). Is that statement true if the > ground is wet from a sprinkler, but yet it is sunny?, Yes, because we are > only told what happens if it is rainy. But if it is NOT rainy, we aren't > making any conclusion about the wetness of the ground, so the combined > statement is still true. The only time it can be false if the hypothesis > ("it is sunny") is true, but the conclusion ("the ground is wet") is false. > > (read articles about implication for more details) > > --gejyspa > > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 4:40 PM, ravas wrote: > >> *first second result* >> True True True >> True False True >> False True True >> False False False >> >> ... >> >> *Perhaps the most important of the truth functions commonly expressed in >> forethought is TFTT, which can be paraphrased as “if ... then ... ”* >> ... >> >> 8.3) ro da zo'u ganai da klama le zarci gi cadzu le foldi >> For-every X: if X is-a-goer-to the store then X is-a-walker-on the >> field. >> >> ---- >> >> Why is ganai-gi (TFTT) the preferred gek-gik structure for "if...then..."? >> Given my limited understanding of "truth functions" it seems like ge-gi >> (TFFF) is clearer. >> Isn't the first row the only thing we want to result in True? >> >> Something else I don't understand: >> *"Since GA cmavo precede the first bridi, a following “nai” negates the >> first bridi instead."* >> >> Why are we negating anything? >> Aren't we trying to assert both bridi are true? >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [...] Content analysis details: (0.8 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. 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IN] [A] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.214.186 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 T_HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (mturniansky[at]gmail.com) 0.0 DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED No valid author signature, adsp_override is CUSTOM_MED 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders Content-Length: 8226 --001a11337bfcf0b386050e274732 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, that penultimate parenthetical should have read ("it is rainy") obviously On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > No. You are making a common mistake of confusing the English "if" with > the logician's if. When we are not talking about one thing depending on > another ("if I get my car fixed, then we can go to the movies"), but rath= er > logical implication (two statements that relate in their truth value) ("i= f > it is raining, then the ground is wet"). Is that statement true if the > ground is wet from a sprinkler, but yet it is sunny?, Yes, because we a= re > only told what happens if it is rainy. But if it is NOT rainy, we aren't > making any conclusion about the wetness of the ground, so the combined > statement is still true. The only time it can be false if the hypothesis > ("it is sunny") is true, but the conclusion ("the ground is wet") is fals= e. > > (read articles about implication for more details) > > --gejyspa > > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 4:40 PM, ravas wrote: > >> *first second result* >> True True True >> True False True >> False True True >> False False False >> >> ... >> >> *Perhaps the most important of the truth functions commonly expressed in >> forethought is TFTT, which can be paraphrased as =E2=80=9Cif ... then ..= . =E2=80=9D* >> ... >> >> 8.3) ro da zo'u ganai da klama le zarci gi cadzu le foldi >> For-every X: if X is-a-goer-to the store then X is-a-walker-on th= e >> field. >> >> ---- >> >> Why is ganai-gi (TFTT) the preferred gek-gik structure for "if...then...= "? >> Given my limited understanding of "truth functions" it seems like ge-gi >> (TFFF) is clearer. >> Isn't the first row the only thing we want to result in True? >> >> Something else I don't understand: >> *"Since GA cmavo precede the first bridi, a following =E2=80=9Cnai=E2=80= =9D negates the >> first bridi instead."* >> >> Why are we negating anything? >> Aren't we trying to assert both bridi are true? >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11337bfcf0b386050e274732 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Sorry, that penultimate parenthetical should have r= ead ("it is rainy") obviously
On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Michael Turnia= nsky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 No.=C2=A0 You are making a common mi= stake of confusing the English "if" with the logician's if.= =C2=A0 When we are not talking about one thing depending on another ("= if I get my car fixed, then we can go to the movies"), but rather logi= cal implication (two statements that relate in their truth value) ("if= it is raining, then the ground is wet").=C2=A0 Is that statement true= if the ground is wet from a sprinkler, but yet it is sunny?, =C2=A0 Yes, b= ecause we are only told what happens if it is rainy.=C2=A0 But if it is NOT= rainy, we aren't making any conclusion about the wetness of the ground= , so the combined statement is still true.=C2=A0 The only time it can be fa= lse if the hypothesis ("it is sunny") is true, but the conclusion= ("the ground is wet") is false.

=C2=A0 (read = articles about implication for more details)

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 4:40 PM, ravas &l= t;ravas@outlook.com<= /a>> wrote:
first second res= ult
True=C2=A0 True=C2=A0=C2=A0 True
True=C2=A0 False=C2= =A0 True
False True=C2=A0=C2=A0 True
False False=C2=A0 Fa= lse

...

Perhaps the most important of the truth fun= ctions commonly expressed in forethought is TFTT, which can be paraphrased = as =E2=80=9Cif ... then ... =E2=80=9D
...

8.3)=C2=A0=C2=A0 ro= da zo'u ganai da klama le zarci gi cadzu le foldi
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For-every X: if X is-a-goer-to the store then X is-a-= walker-on the field.

----

Why is ganai-gi (TFTT) the preferred gek-gik structure for &quo= t;if...then..."?
Given my limited understanding of "truth func= tions" it seems like ge-gi (TFFF) is clearer.
Isn't the first = row the only thing we want to result in True?

Something else I don't understand:
"Since GA cmavo precede the first bridi, a following =E2=80= =9Cnai=E2=80=9D negates the first bridi instead."

Why are we negating anything?
Ar= en't we trying to assert both bridi are true?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11337bfcf0b386050e274732--