Received: from mail-qc0-f184.google.com ([209.85.216.184]:57704) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YNOdd-0001jx-W4 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:35:18 -0800 Received: by mail-qc0-f184.google.com with SMTP id b13sf5981401qcw.1 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:35:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=HE9RjqrCA9AOhh9t2LK7ytF96xijBzb9qxJ3dFPEzKA=; b=Bs2J4EC30FiDPGInBeymMJtS20krIiwjXE7Yv360+o3xgwfE4JTVtztCDBlu54ZSiD J8MNuOZ4giTLIoO5IvYrAnJc/82GSxoJoxEHuC/schiULFhgnLqKnYPRstiM7KIM0Pw5 2frdKnvPWtdDgpxVdrS+vulPX+O9bOpOwhfwdV6qBfRZUkGX2+WH3VmzKZmyd4FF5Mwy rm0zMuWTnOTWzPFGkmn1nmTC0paga3E6It9ubvQ8z8iOavTz+nuCjU9W/ldnvut0RnP7 ZWFmm5qOEsTnUOCg5W2hETRQNPcaH6AhaZeu28o5ZEK76OubbR6MypDcW+9aIW9KHMiH TqYQ== X-Received: by 10.50.112.194 with SMTP id is2mr391617igb.2.1424104507343; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:35:07 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.124.193 with SMTP id mk1ls1269539igb.1.canary; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:35:06 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.66.255.68 with SMTP id ao4mr21105918pad.1.1424104506091; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qa0-x234.google.com (mail-qa0-x234.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c00::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e5si631256qcg.1.2015.02.16.08.35.06 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c00::234; Received: by mail-qa0-x234.google.com with SMTP id v10so22697330qac.11 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:35:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.95.179 with SMTP id i48mr21236qge.4.1424104505903; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.140.35.103 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Feb 2015 08:35:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <095fb3fa-b04b-4ea2-b170-e8b261eeca7b@googlegroups.com> References: <095fb3fa-b04b-4ea2-b170-e8b261eeca7b@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 11:35:05 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] A few sentences From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c16dfc329050050f372b82 X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 10376 --001a11c16dfc329050050f372b82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson < eriknatanaelgustafsson@gmail.com> wrote: > You have nothing to fear. (I had difficulties with this one, how do you > reference the concept of an emotion?)= > .i lo krinu .ii na zasti > .i lo se terpa be do na zasti > .i lo se terpa pe do cu claxu lo krinu > You really can't use attitudinals except to express that you are feeling some emotion. You'll need to use {terpa} necessarily. The second one seems sort of close, except it does exist in *some* sense, because you're talking about it. Maybe {lo se terpa be do na zasti fi lo vajni}: what they fear exists but not in a sense that matters. > > The music that they were playing was a part of a bigger work. = > .i le zgike poi ra pu zgipli ku'o pagbu le se finti poi bramau > This is a bit redundant. You could just say {le [pu] te zgipli [be fi ra] cu pagbu le se finti noi bramau}. I also see no particular need for {le} here necessarily, though I suppose there's some style to be said. > On his way to the store, Erik fell on a marble. = > .i la .erik. pu farlu ri'a lo bolci be lo rokci vau ca'o lonu ra klama le > zaisle > Two problems, both fairly minor. First a cause is an event, so you need either {ri'a tu'a ...} or to actually spell out "because of an event of stepping on a marble". Second, when you use a ZAhO like {ca'o} as a tag, what you get is that the outer event is assigned the contour and is said to be simultaneous with the other event. That is, {broda ca'o ko'a} === {ca'o broda ca ko'a}. The falling is probably not very continuative, so you can just use {ca}. > > Accompanied by the whisper of the trees, I dance. = > .i po'o lo se smasku be lei tricu cu kansa lonu mi dansu > kansa1 and kansa2 are generally objects, where kansa2 satisfies kansa3 and kansa1 is present (usually but not always also satisfying kansa3). So you should have {.... kansa mi lo ka [ce'u] dansu}. What "..." should be depends somewhat on your stance on metaphors. > The ink will soon shine red by the life-giving force of the words. = > .i le xinmo cu bazi xunre gusycai ri'a lo nunji'e bapli pe lei valsi > I think this is OK. > When the bus left the stop, he kissed me tenderly in his thoughts. = > .i iu. ra cinba mi ne'i lo menli vau ca'o lonu lo sorprekarce cu cliva > The {iu} is not actually translating anything from the original, though it's appropriate. I wouldn't say {ne'i lo menli} (it comes off as literal in Lojban). I'd probably spell out "imagined kissing me tenderly" or something to that effect instead. > > The door locks itself automatically. = > .i lo stela po le ganlo cu zmiku > {pe} is fine, as it usually is. {po} is a little weird with an entity that can't actually possess something. Otherwise I think this is OK. > > With only one hand, Klas won the whole tournament. = > .i la klas. pu jinga fo ro le terjvi se pi'o po'o pa lo xance > This has a very subtle problem having to do with quantifier scope, which is that as written, the hand he used to win each part of the tournament could depend on the tournament. That is, it says that he used one hand in each part, but it does not say that the hand was the same in all of the parts. If you just move the {ro} inside the article, you remove this. I would probably also move the {pa} inside the article although this is somewhat of a stylistic choice. > > I am grateful for any corrections! > .i fi'i co'o do'u .i mi'e la latro'a mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c16dfc329050050f372b82 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On M= on, Feb 16, 2015 at 10:34 AM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson &l= t;eri= knatanaelgustafsson@gmail.com> wrote:
You have nothing to fear. (I= had difficulties with this one, how do you reference the concept of an emo= tion?)=3D
.i lo krinu .ii na zasti
.i lo se terpa be do na zasti
.= i lo se terpa pe do cu claxu lo krinu
You really= can't use attitudinals except to express that you are feeling some emo= tion. You'll need to use {terpa} necessarily. The second one seems sort= of close, except it does exist in *some* sense, because you're talking= about it. Maybe {lo se terpa be do na zasti fi lo vajni}: what they fear e= xists but not in a sense that matters.

The music that they were playin= g was a part of a bigger work. =3D
.i le zgike poi ra pu zgipli ku'o= pagbu le se finti poi bramau
This is a bit redu= ndant. You could just say {le [pu] te zgipli [be fi ra] cu pagbu le se fint= i noi bramau}. I also see no particular need for {le} here necessarily, tho= ugh I suppose there's some style to be said.
On his way to the store, = Erik fell on a marble. =3D
.i la .erik. pu farlu ri'a lo bolci be lo= rokci vau ca'o lonu ra klama le zaisle
Two = problems, both fairly minor. First a cause is an event, so you need either = {ri'a tu'a ...} or to actually spell out "because of an event = of stepping on a marble". Second, when you use a ZAhO like {ca'o} = as a tag, what you get is that the outer event is assigned the contour and = is said to be simultaneous with the other event. That is, {broda ca'o k= o'a} =3D=3D=3D {ca'o broda ca ko'a}. The falling is probably no= t very continuative, so you can just use {ca}.

Accompanied by the wh= isper of the trees, I dance. =3D
.i po'o lo se smasku be lei tricu c= u kansa lonu mi dansu
kansa1 and kansa2 are gene= rally objects, where kansa2 satisfies kansa3 and kansa1 is present (usually= but not always also satisfying kansa3). So you should have {.... kansa mi = lo ka [ce'u] dansu}. What "..." should be depends somewhat on= your stance on metaphors.
The ink will soon shine red by the life-giving = force of the words. =3D
.i le xinmo cu bazi xunre gusycai ri'a lo nu= nji'e bapli pe lei valsi
I think this is OK.=
When the bus left the stop, he kissed me tenderly in his thoughts. =3D.i iu. ra cinba mi ne'i lo menli vau ca'o lonu lo sorprekarce cu = cliva
The {iu} is not actually translating anyth= ing from the original, though it's appropriate. I wouldn't say {ne&= #39;i lo menli} (it comes off as literal in Lojban). I'd probably spell= out "imagined kissing me tenderly" or something to that effect i= nstead.

The door locks itself automatically. =3D
.i lo stela po le= ganlo cu zmiku
{pe} is fine, as it usually is. = {po} is a little weird with an entity that can't actually possess somet= hing. Otherwise I think this is OK.

With only one hand, Klas won the w= hole tournament. =3D
.i la klas. pu jinga fo ro le terjvi se pi'o po= 'o pa lo xance
This has a very subtle proble= m having to do with quantifier scope, which is that as written, the hand he= used to win each part of the tournament could depend on the tournament. Th= at is, it says that he used one hand in each part, but it does not say that= the hand was the same in all of the parts. If you just move the {ro} insid= e the article, you remove this. I would probably also move the {pa} inside = the article although this is somewhat of a stylistic choice.

I am grat= eful for any corrections!
.i fi'i co'o d= o'u .i mi'e la latro'a mu'o

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a11c16dfc329050050f372b82--