Received: from mail-qc0-f192.google.com ([209.85.216.192]:33794) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1YcwWx-0002gq-OT for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:48:40 -0700 Received: by qcvs11 with SMTP id s11sf6292142qcv.1 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:48:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=f69or0BQj9w+wNrYhPSe6BtUgrluqwPhf2ufb2eZqk8=; b=cHq0s6jAxOiWK6SXSo/84qc7nbX0XR155FxU4z1iRTHcR6/yCyeINyipyhywIGNI3x rKpSVCSYjNR2mVvIflw6cbON8uOsY4y2X6ERmko2AgoW7czxBP8g8Ch6XkpBXNVwNIcS r4I9T4Miox6VpXFTD+Y8wp25bnPJPXhBeGFrxIT1T3pZfi0aMTWm4omX8XwEu8AFHxH7 u1EYOsgrW9K+h967axwLelE2n79gFKijDlU0woz6P+llLGbihESUzoydCqF57CKod1Jj 1ptEMoC4CiQTXVZlVjqW7r+tCXMB8W2SAVCxftJYZSvyVum368/o6H4vw/fFDLIv5sIE sS9Q== X-Received: by 10.50.143.33 with SMTP id sb1mr52431igb.13.1427809709269; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:48:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.66.132 with SMTP id f4ls1385688igt.43.canary; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:48:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.253.225 with SMTP id ad1mr16312152pad.0.1427809706084; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22a.google.com (mail-qg0-x22a.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id kt5si2349767qcb.3.2015.03.31.06.48.26 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22a; Received: by mail-qg0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id a8so14478267qgf.0 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:48:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.31.83 with SMTP id f80mr78596989qkf.57.1427809705892; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.80.231 with HTTP; Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:48:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1427772204090.97320@connect.qut.edu.au> References: <1427716991889.33634@connect.qut.edu.au> <1427772204090.97320@connect.qut.edu.au> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:48:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Pronunciation of "o" From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1147b55c53a1e6051295da5f X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 16523 --001a1147b55c53a1e6051295da5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I think it is making some assumptions about the reader's dialect of English. In American pronunciation for instance, "joke" and "note" indeed have a sound which could only be the "o" in Lojban. It is not necessarily the preferred Lojban "o" sound, but it is too far from "a" and "au" for any confusion. (This is one of the advantages of not having very many vowels!) mi'e la latro'a mu'o On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:23 PM, Timothy Lawrence < timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote: > Thanks very much, that all makes sense :) > > Perhaps the Level 0 Brochure should be updated as its suggested "joke" and > "note" appear to be widely pronounced as that diphthong, which led to my > confusion. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com < > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Monday, 30 March 2015 11:51 PM > *To:* lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [lojban-beginners] Pronunciation of "o" > > Timothy, I understand you are Australian. if the link you provided is > indeed how you pronounce "on", then it will probably be confused with the > lojban "a". It's closer to how that same website pronounces "north". It > should be basically be around either here > : or here > or in-between > (always rounded > lips) whereas a hangs around either here > or here > or in-between > always with > lips unrounded. > > --gejyspa > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> You are right. Maybe this will also help you: >> http://mw.lojban.org/images/b/b1/Lojban_interactive.swf >> >> 2015-03-30 15:03 GMT+03:00 Timothy Lawrence < >> timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>: >> >>> How is the letter "o" pronounced in Lojban? Is it the monophthong "o", >>> as in English "on "? >>> Is it the diphthong "ow", as in English "own >>> "? (It's hard to >>> describe sounds in writing so I linked to spoken audio samples) >>> >>> I ask because the pronunciation guide of the "Level 0 Booklet" seems to >>> be indicating it is the latter, based on how I think "joke" and "note" are >>> pronounced: >>> http://lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure-utf/phonol.html >>> However, from the same page: "Lojban has diphthongs as well, but these >>> are always represented by the two vowels that combine to form them." >>> >>> I presumed the intent behind Lojban's phonetic spelling was that each >>> letter represents a pure vowel sound and I noted that the pronunciation of >>> "Lojban" on its Wiki article seems to indicate the pronunciation might be >>> the former monophthong: >>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Jbo-lojban.ogg >>> >>> Thus I've been presuming "o" in Lojban would be pronounced as in English >>> "on" and thus "ou" would be the Lojbanic diphthong to represent "ow" as in >>> English "own". Is this correct? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Timothy >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1147b55c53a1e6051295da5f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think it is making some assumptions about the reade= r's dialect of English. In American pronunciation for instance, "j= oke" and "note" indeed have a sound which could only be the = "o" in Lojban. It is not necessarily the preferred Lojban "o= " sound, but it is too far from "a" and "au" for a= ny confusion. (This is one of the advantages of not having very many vowels= !)

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:23 PM, = Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:

Thanks very much, that all makes sense :)

Perhaps the Level 0 Brochure should be updated=C2=A0as its suggested=C2= =A0"joke" and "note" appear=C2=A0to be widely pronounce= d as that=C2=A0diphthong, which led to my confusion.


From: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com <lojban-b= eginners@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com= >
Sent: Monday, 30 March 2015 11:51 PM
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Pronunciation of "o"
=C2=A0
Timothy, I understand you are Australian. =C2=A0if the lin= k you provided is indeed how you pronounce "on", then it will pro= bably be confused with the lojban "a".=C2=A0 It's closer to h= ow that same website pronounces "north".=C2=A0 It should be basic= ally be around either here: or here=C2=A0or in-between=C2=A0(always rounded lips) whereas a hangs around ei= ther here=C2=A0or here=C2=A0or in-between=C2=A0always with lips unrounded.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa


On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Gleki Arxokuna = <gleki.i= s.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
You are right. Maybe this will also help you:

2015-03-30 15:03 GMT+03:00 Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>:
How is the letter "o" pronounced in Lojban? Is it the monophthong= "o", as in English "on"? Is it the d= iphthong "ow", as in English "own"? (It's hard to describe sounds in writing so I linked to spoken audio s= amples)

I ask because the pronunciation guide of the "Level=C2=A00 Booklet&quo= t; seems to be indicating it is the latter, based on how I think "joke= " and "note" are pronounced: http://lojban.org/publications/level0/brochure-utf/phonol.html
However, from the same page: "Lojban has diphthongs as well, but these= are always represented by the two vowels that combine to form them."<= br>
I presumed the intent behind Lojban's phonetic spelling was that each l= etter represents a pure vowel sound and I noted that the pronunciation of &= quot;Lojban" on its Wiki article seems to indicate the pronunciation m= ight be the former monophthong: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Jbo-lojban.ogg=C2=A0=

Thus I've been presuming "o" in Lojban would be pronounced as= in English "on" and thus "ou" would be the Lojbanic di= phthong to represent "ow" as in English "own". Is this = correct?

Thanks,

Timothy

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