Received: from mail-ob0-f192.google.com ([209.85.214.192]:34256) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YwF79-0003Zh-Ts for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 23 May 2015 12:29:52 -0700 Received: by obcwm4 with SMTP id wm4sf12109217obc.1 for ; Sat, 23 May 2015 12:29:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=YsY5mLHoOGH7Gffnu9s8FP1bNIDFXj2BGw+u54yPEYE=; b=d1g+YDy6lb9EVpxGajAg5DxdzaIQzCAtfb4/ae8HOfDY35ISID9Xyg8fS84k3B4faV eiHtsfeJvEGVRZiKSI/IdRzIicuWHiLuMiGPtJqMhtGr3gnh4JD9OjvKH7tvGnkq0y7c +n6cVm5Cmn6MPkiZftzH8/yTaBQDc+30vGUlCYWH/IEIKo8KvI8pCUGAbk7EBl9RAqy+ /uOLkYBNc2GMv11UnaN8TQGuH3AvnYoYZdAtXRWzuou1b5e77xW33AKx+pg8obrRH+W2 YdROp9Qk6X6gYQCTwgTH5R80WJY/JVg4H/0V4AM7VmOnHaN5oW0fmaly7JzryX1Ivoib NfKw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=YsY5mLHoOGH7Gffnu9s8FP1bNIDFXj2BGw+u54yPEYE=; b=Z9khwVGPfMnW5c2P/acYxCEDFLEkM+m465yFvrrZY+XiUnGgJMQ6v31QBvMJLiLj9H cawJWiaQt1R9xibtUecQZcBQ3jKlb6jXwMcFkIyJGIOWqSHOCscea5BBBynjUfcYRXxQ JpfFXSN3CJhc6HRRMcOzMzpxSc1grMeMXU5893YW/Xu1wvdnEqOJoCF73RvxKokYaHXp qAThkSHzlVjFawRHfXB2VXp/En32PTN8BjQyPFOvq6ilKWcjciZw7lznl/fOX1Iv/iT1 YAA++NuXhX1uEBiDpkF3OjRUOEc5GEA3SiyayZvpYNFHX6cyBbSEfEIsqzXDiCZgE/tn TbTQ== X-Received: by 10.140.21.200 with SMTP id 66mr205264qgl.31.1432409377947; Sat, 23 May 2015 12:29:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.107.55 with SMTP id g52ls2522014qgf.82.gmail; Sat, 23 May 2015 12:29:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.48.11 with SMTP id n11mr200138qga.35.1432409377285; Sat, 23 May 2015 12:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 23 May 2015 12:29:36 -0700 (PDT) From: TR NS To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <34bd31d9-985f-4212-87ed-d6ffc002cee0@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3769eeda-b171-4f23-a4a7-ecc9368b8ff8@googlegroups.com> <94879cf6-f8ca-4f24-b1cc-61d5c8c7ecd0@googlegroups.com> <99ec7940-1442-4d76-b4e2-e372259af605@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Talking about a color MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_366_973962645.1432409376571" X-Original-Sender: transfire@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -3.1 (---) X-Spam_score: -3.1 X-Spam_score_int: -30 X-Spam_bar: --- Content-Length: 10151 ------=_Part_366_973962645.1432409376571 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_367_1269817081.1432409376572" ------=_Part_367_1269817081.1432409376572 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 11:33:23 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: > > > > 2015-05-23 18:08 GMT+03:00 TR NS >: > >> >> >> On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> 2015-05-22 5:59 GMT+03:00 TR NS : >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 4:25:09 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the color green green? I would say it has to be. >>>>>> >>>>>> If it is, then "lo crino" is perfectly fine. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I thought that would mean "the-green-thing". >>>>> >>>> >>>> or "those, which are green". >>>> >>> >>> Yes, the one(s) that are green. So when the color green is green, it >>> can be referred to as "lo crino". >>> >> >> To me, it doesn't make sense for green to have the property green. >> > > Lojban doesn't delve into philosophical issues of properties vs. objects > (in philosophical sense). > > One can construe it that way and listeners will sometimes take your >> meaning, of course, but I'm not sure it is technically accurate. But I >> admit it's a tricky question. Nonetheless, if somewhere says to me out of >> the blue, >> >> mi trajynei lo crino >> >> I wouldn't think they are saying green-the-color is their favorite, but >> rather "I favor the green stuff". And I'd probably be looking around for >> something green. It occurs to me though that trajynei might provide a >> simple solution itself: >> >> mi trajynei lo crino lo se skari >> I favor green among colors. >> >> This is very close to your: >> >> mi trajynei lo crino se skari >> >> But lacks the use of metaphor, so is more exact in meaning. Correct? >> > > I would agree that indeed a more precise solution like what xorxes said. > I think "noun + adjective" in "color green" is misleading here. Or even > more correctly "color" is a word taking adjectives to construct special > meanings. > Ah, so you are saying that `lo crino se skari` is basically saying the same thing as `lo crino`. > What is "liking color green" if not liking objects that have this color. > If you have read the well-known story > by > Borges you will remember that by such object you may assume all green > objects in the Universe considered as one huge object. > > It might be a case of splitting hairs. But it seems like it would be a important distinction in conversation because I would expect the interpretation of `lo crino` to mean *some thing* that is green, not `ro lo crino` or maybe `loi crino` -- which according to Borges I guess would essentially mean the same thing as liking green. Cool. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_367_1269817081.1432409376572 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Saturday, May 23, 2015 at 11:33:23 AM UTC-4, la= gleki wrote:
=

2015-05-23 18:08 GMT+03:00 TR NS <t= ran...@gmail.com>:


On Friday, May 22, 2015 at 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, xorxes wrote:=


On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 3:02 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com> w= rote:
2015-05-22 5:59 GMT+03:00 TR NS &l= t;tran...@gmail.com>:
On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 4:25:09 PM UT= C-4, xorxes wrote:
=

Is the color green gree= n? I would say it has to be.

If it is, then "lo cr= ino" is perfectly fine.

=
I thought that would mean "the-green-thing".

or  "those, which are green".

Yes, the one(s) that are g= reen.  So when the color green is green, it can be referred to as "lo = crino".

To m= e, it doesn't make sense for green to have the property green.
<= /blockquote>

Lojban doesn't delve into philosophical iss= ues of properties vs. objects (in philosophical sense).

One can construe it = that way and listeners will sometimes take your meaning, of course, but I'm= not sure it is technically accurate. But I admit it's a tricky question. N= onetheless, if somewhere says to me out of the blue,

    mi trajynei lo crino
=

I wouldn't think they are saying green-the-color is the= ir favorite, but rather "I favor the green stuff". And I'd probably be look= ing around for something green. It occurs to me though that trajynei might = provide a simple solution itself:

=     mi trajynei lo crino lo se skari
&n= bsp;   I favor green among colors.

This is ve= ry close to your:

    mi trajynei&n= bsp;lo crino se skari

But lacks the use of metapho= r, so is more exact in meaning. Correct?

<= /div>
I would agree that indeed a more precise solution like what xorxe= s said.
I think "noun + adjective" in "color green" is misleading= here. Or even more correctly "color" is a word taking adjectives to constr= uct special meanings.

Ah, so you are saying that `lo crino se skari` is basically saying the s= ame thing as `lo crino`.
 
Wha= t is "liking color green" if not liking objects that have this color.
=
If you have read the well-known story by Borges you will remember that by such object you may ass= ume all green objects in the Universe considered as one huge object.
<= div>

It might b= e a case of splitting hairs. But it seems like it would be a important dist= inction in conversation because I would expect the interpretation of `lo cr= ino` to mean *some thing* that is green, not `ro lo crino` or maybe `loi cr= ino` -- which according to Borges I guess would essentially mean the same t= hing as liking green. Cool.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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