Received: from mail-wg0-f63.google.com ([74.125.82.63]:34619) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1YtVUh-0007bY-MG for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 15 May 2015 23:22:48 -0700 Received: by wggx12 with SMTP id x12sf51981199wgg.1 for ; Fri, 15 May 2015 23:22:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=VP1QmBNXH2RJ12Rw8nRiafjMreJIB3Wz/BVaQ5ja3Bk=; b=RVVuZebqNPuUsTboM3X+9aueMd7VJJdxjJ6cNAF1jhH2oSsq3Il1BWaciR2GpBztoy EuCem91vmIdOYktTg7vmQGHWKcwire/N877ikhMPkhkA5I0tG09v7Cp2xWa0k7VjT8Op 9V450A3qfqSQKGvTUfo/qcz4IoKKXUXB4O4Mj4xuEzDBMaIjn6i3Chx8FEbR+ui7C5Y0 KVPv0J8eaR6pJ+YoJEoDmPTgCkO8o7XkZ9wRmKcP8Vy08PXW42nwJJMZ/BNKJHRuDfUd hsGRtU9GsJHndSABMWWBABCLOyerJC9i0M2zMQV5VmBK+NoJB4oOKgpmbPZDNRhv6gYp 0+9A== X-Received: by 10.152.181.97 with SMTP id dv1mr71468lac.7.1431757357234; Fri, 15 May 2015 23:22:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.116.7 with SMTP id js7ls560103lab.34.gmail; Fri, 15 May 2015 23:22:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.8.17 with SMTP id n17mr9815601laa.0.1431757355740; Fri, 15 May 2015 23:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x234.google.com (mail-wg0-x234.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c00::234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p9si29039wiz.3.2015.05.15.23.22.35 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 15 May 2015 23:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::234; Received: by mail-wg0-x234.google.com with SMTP id v19so73921403wgu.1 for ; Fri, 15 May 2015 23:22:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.81.200 with SMTP id c8mr3562248wiy.49.1431757355611; Fri, 15 May 2015 23:22:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.194.221.167 with HTTP; Fri, 15 May 2015 23:22:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7246a2f2-8fe9-4db2-b104-c825409e634a@googlegroups.com> References: <7246a2f2-8fe9-4db2-b104-c825409e634a@googlegroups.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Sat, 16 May 2015 09:22:15 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Does the argument limit lead to half-ass words? To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043bdb0895fbf405162cfcda X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_bar: -- Content-Length: 12658 --f46d043bdb0895fbf405162cfcda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2015-05-16 5:10 GMT+03:00 TR NS : > In my recent studies of Lojban (and Loglan) I've started to question the > efficacy of the argument system. One the things that struck me was the wo= rd > for "run". > > barja x1 runs on x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4 > {bajra} ({lo barja} is a tavern, bar) > That seems a strange definition. I can't really think of single time I > ever needed to express that the running was done with anything other then > legs. > I watched many videos on Youtube where people were able to run using their hands. Besides, horses don't necessarily have hands and feet. > Perhaps it would be useful when talking about Oscar Pistorius Olympic > races, but that's a rather rare case! > So we'll use all places of this verb very seldom! Not all places are always needed. > When I think of running, it tends to be *to* some place or at least *via* > some path. The word "barja" really doesn't seem like the idea of running. > It seems more akin to "treading", as in "running on a tread mill", since > the definition has no arguments whatsoever for origin or destination. > Yes, indeed. Conciseness of English definitions can sometimes lead to their incorrect interpretations. Here is one of my examples (not sure where I got it): xu do su'o roi senva lo ka bajra lo jdika grana lo xance be do =E2=80=94 Ha= ve you ever dreamt of running on your hands on a narrow rod? > But I suspect that is not what the definer really had in mind. I think > rather, those arguments were left out (as if we could sensibly talk about > running without them) because the definition needed to stay under five > arguments and the definer already knew that a lujvo could be formed with > "klama". And so we find the word "bajykla". > > bajykla k1 runs to destination k2 from origin k3 via route k4 using > limbs b3 with gait b4 > > This word strikes me as what running is really all about. But notice we > lost the surface (x2) argument. Moreover, I could easily imagine an > additional speed argument. > > That lead me to wonder if the ordinal argument system is really > sufficient. "Running" is a concept and everything that can be reasonably > associated with the concept should be accounted for in the possible > arguments. > I'm sure, you are not going to add places for what was the weather while the person was running or what was the political situation in Berguland at that time. All of those factors could make running somewhat different and result in different results (the weather could change the route etc.) While it's kind of neat how "bajykla" can be composed form "barja" and > "klama", being *neat* isn't high in my list of criteria for being well > defined. > > On top of this, reading about Modal Tags, that really hammered home to me > that the argument system has some holes. I don't see how a well defined > predicate could ever make sense with dynamically added arguments. If they > made sense they should already be part of the predicate's definition. (Of > course, some modals are basically short-cuts for making relative clauses > and not so much case tags at all. These stand out b/c they are universall= y > applicable to just about any predicate.) > > In short, it seems like the limitation of keeping the number of arguments > within a small range (generally five) is an arbitrary provision that caus= es > some concepts to be chopped-up into equally arbitrary partial concepts. = Of > course, the converse issue would be how to handle predicates with > potentially a dozen arguments when it is already difficult enough to reca= ll > the fourth or fifth? > Just use several verbs. You can easily say {mi bajra lo jdika grana lo xance gi'e klama do ...} > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d043bdb0895fbf405162cfcda Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2015-05-16 5:10 GMT+03:00 TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>:=
In my recent studies of Lojban (and L= oglan) I've started to question the efficacy of the argument system. On= e the things that struck me was the word for "run".

<= /div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 barja x1 runs on x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4=C2= =A0

{bajra} ({lo barja} is a ta= vern, bar)


<= /div>
That seems a strange definition. I can't really think of sing= le time I ever needed to express that the running was done with anything ot= her then legs.

I watched many v= ideos on Youtube where people were able to run using their hands. Besides, = horses don't necessarily have hands and feet.
=C2=A0
Perhaps it would be useful when talkin= g about=C2=A0Oscar Pistorius=C2=A0Olympic races, but that's a rather ra= re case!

So we'll use all p= laces of this verb very seldom! Not all places are always needed.
=C2=A0
When I think of runnin= g, it tends to be *to* some place or at least *via* some path. The word &qu= ot;barja" really doesn't seem like the idea of running. It seems m= ore akin to "treading", as in "running on a tread mill"= , since the definition has no arguments whatsoever for origin or destinatio= n.

Yes, indeed. Conciseness of = English definitions can sometimes lead to their incorrect interpretations.<= /div>
Here is one of my examples (not sure where I got it):
<= br>
xu do su'o roi senva lo ka bajra lo jdika grana lo x= ance be do =E2=80=94 Have you ever dreamt of running on your hands on a nar= row rod?

=
But I suspect that is not what the definer really had in min= d. I think rather, those arguments were left out (as if we could sensibly t= alk about running without them) because the definition needed to stay under= five arguments and the definer already knew that a lujvo could be formed w= ith "klama". And so we find the word "bajykla".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 bajykla k1 runs to destination k2 from orig= in k3 via route k4 using limbs b3 with gait b4

This word strikes me as what running is really all about. But notic= e we lost the surface (x2) argument. Moreover, I could easily imagine an ad= ditional speed argument.

That lead me to wonder if= the ordinal argument system is really sufficient. "Running" is a= concept and everything that can be reasonably associated with the concept = should be accounted for in the possible arguments.
=

I'm sure, you are not going to add places for what = was the weather while the person was running or what was the political situ= ation in Berguland at that time. All of those factors could make running so= mewhat different and result in different results (the weather could change = the route etc.)

= While it's kind of neat how "bajykla" can be composed form &= quot;barja" and "klama", being *neat* isn't high in my l= ist of criteria for being well defined.

On top of = this, reading about Modal Tags, that really hammered home to me that the ar= gument system has some holes. I don't see how a well defined predicate = could ever make sense with dynamically added arguments. If they made sense = they should already be part of the predicate's definition. (Of course, = some modals are basically short-cuts for making relative clauses and not so= much case tags at all. These stand out b/c they are universally applicable= to just about any predicate.)

In short, it seems = like the limitation of keeping the number of arguments within a small range= (generally five) is an arbitrary provision that causes some concepts to be= chopped-up into equally arbitrary partial concepts.=C2=A0 Of course, the c= onverse issue would be how to handle predicates with potentially a dozen ar= guments when it is already difficult enough to recall the fourth or fifth?<= /div>

Just use several verbs. You can= easily say {mi bajra lo jdika grana lo xance gi'e klama do ...}=C2=A0<= /div>



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.=
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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