Received: from mail-lb0-f184.google.com ([209.85.217.184]:33925) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7k44-0005pm-IK for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 05:46:09 -0700 Received: by lbiv13 with SMTP id v13sf11485091lbi.1 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 05:45:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=DYd+oJ3zc0v2CpkOBcijSR9hXvnfXJvAFCcQbsTGEDs=; b=ZndD7gHsiKSiyPZTnPrwGO4MwrwJtY2DQb3MDCS72AzUzd/OeliiccQxZLztaMqjVR aTimD+DhP0g5XN2Ji+EeFUSIFbXtHRY4fZ/10X3FzApVKutJVfKUyi12vDuAwRmHYyUD GKuouZ9K8VFh1l20Lzn1ncQrbtRBoW7qQknofEgYeemy3lzEaZOyNpNXdQzwiAktQ5R0 axoOBE7WQh4NlHvLojhCudGASpLzD+sLoqZRYijPFFsD3/rGXRtf8xQ1jgay/jhL01qs sc0Tb6xcdF8J9RAP3YoAkwYdAvzKP/cWLIQrRQA3d8ekgSbAjJgij8tqZ7K8ZbgtEK/F Rr/A== X-Received: by 10.152.184.34 with SMTP id er2mr104744lac.12.1435149957511; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 05:45:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.4.1 with SMTP id g1ls182690lag.46.gmail; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.26.5 with SMTP id h5mr35973795lbg.4.1435149955948; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cj6si95180wib.1.2015.06.24.05.45.55 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Jun 2015 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::235; Received: by mail-wi0-x235.google.com with SMTP id l6so94045182wiw.0 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.175.65 with SMTP id by1mr9860768wjc.152.1435149955829; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.28.148.206 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8339cd6c-3223-419e-8e22-ecb0b773c1c7@googlegroups.com> References: <9a559350-5536-4ea8-8708-73a06e5c8531@googlegroups.com> <9a42afbb-df26-455f-b62c-d89181cad0be@googlegroups.com> <28474f71-596c-4000-8f63-cb431fa47d5b@googlegroups.com> <8339cd6c-3223-419e-8e22-ecb0b773c1c7@googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 08:45:55 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Some questions after reading la .teris. From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013d196a511578051942e346 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 7986 --089e013d196a511578051942e346 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 3:00 AM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson < eriknatanaelgustafsson@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:57:35 AM UTC+2, xorxes wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson < >> eriknatanae...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 12:08:56 AM UTC+2, xorxes wrote: >> >> >> >>> I think that's mostly a matter of register. "I am of the opinion that >>>> ..." is way too formal for something like that. In English you might >>>> express an opinion by saying "I think that ...". >>>> >>> Yes it's too formal, but I wanted to clearly distinguish the different >>> senses of "to think". "To think" has so many different meanings that it >>> feels almost meaningless when used in a definition. >>> >> >> But "think that ...", i.e. when the object is a proposition, is pretty >> much always "jinvi". Other "think"s are usually "pensi". >> > But couldn't "think that" just as well be sruma, krici or even smadi > depending on context? > >> >> >> >>> I guess the question is, how would I in Lojban distinguish between an >>> opinion that is a belief concerning something which is true or false and an >>> opinion that is a subjective view/taste? >>> >> >> "jinvi" for the first one. For the second, I would need an example, but I >> suppose you are thinking of "by standard" places, as in "ta melbi mi", >> "that's beautiful to me"? >> > I'm sorry, I'm still having trouble seeing "opinion" used for objective > contexts, but I'm trying to understand. I'll try to come up with clear > examples of what I mean: > Objective/true-false unsure statement: "I think Stockholm is a city, but > I'm not sure." (where think can be replaced by believe) > Subjective statement: "I think Stockholm is a dreadful city." > I would use krici or similar for the first and jinvi for the second. Or is > there another way to state facts with uncertainty that is appropriate for > the first example? > I would tend to use evidentials/attitudinals for the first, like "la stokom ju'o cu'i tcadu" (Conversely, I would use "pe'i" for the second) If you did want to use a selbri, how about "mi norbirti lo du'u la stokom tcadu"? --gejyspa -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --089e013d196a511578051942e346 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 3:00 AM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson <= eriknatanaelgustafsson@gmail.com> wrote:


On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:57:35 AM UTC+2, xor= xes wrote:


On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 6:= 21 AM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson <e= riknatanae...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesda= y, June 23, 2015 at 12:08:56 AM UTC+2, xorxes wrote:
=C2= =A0
I think that's mostly a matter of register.= "I am of the opinion that ..." is way too formal for something l= ike that. In English you might express an opinion by saying "I think t= hat ...".
Yes it's= too formal, but I wanted to clearly distinguish the different senses of &q= uot;to think". "To think" has so many different meanings tha= t it feels almost meaningless when used in a definition.

But "think that ...", i.e. when the objec= t is a proposition, is pretty much always "jinvi".=C2=A0 Other &q= uot;think"s are usually "pensi".
But couldn't "think that" just as well b= e sruma, krici or even smadi depending on context?

=C2=A0
I guess the question is, how would I in Lojban distinguis= h between an opinion that is a belief concerning something which is true or= false and an opinion that is a subjective view/taste?=C2=A0

"jinvi" for the first one. For the second= , I would need an example, but I suppose you are thinking of "by stand= ard" places, as in "ta melbi mi", "that's beautiful= to me"?
I'm sorry= , I'm still having trouble seeing "opinion" used for objectiv= e contexts, but I'm trying to understand. I'll try to come up with = clear examples of what I mean:
Objective/true-false unsure statement: &q= uot;I think Stockholm is a city, but I'm not sure." (where think c= an be replaced by believe)
Subjective statement: "I think Stockholm= is a dreadful city."
I would use krici or similar for the first an= d jinvi for the second. Or is there another way to state facts with uncerta= inty that is appropriate for the first example?
=
=C2=A0 I would tend to use evidentials/attitudinals for the = first, like "la stokom ju'o cu'i tcadu"
=C2=A0 = (Conversely, I would use "pe'i" for the second)
=C2= =A0 If you did want to use a selbri, how about "mi norbirti lo du'= u la stokom tcadu"?


=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--089e013d196a511578051942e346--