Received: from mail-pa0-f57.google.com ([209.85.220.57]:34764) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1Z7lub-0007cn-Fm for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:44:30 -0700 Received: by pablj1 with SMTP id lj1sf10525546pab.1 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:44:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=tPm5MpJ4Hq9rtrWRE3ODStcoOe3DQwTKBSHx37/u5jQ=; b=SmrMjITJkXvYqzkpbrNWKKwmsSA3cW6sFNKNq5cadLrno8RP0zVAmdTDH2XOqYnlbk gO7dISkAh2E7eka1aYs4CcPF8VL0pyDA+gsXBr93cXT+AeCptXqHbqit8toNr0b8VRtd Acvi+yTLZPyXRXjc+LM5DMxGWZnyzXyfDPU/bNyklAN64KpVoqjZ/ws04tQaxXJc3JVn agK2MT9rg0KgL4E2hhOoH1qe52V6RTkEbE78SwPUYBWMFiqWsREQVik7euYUvcWn3t5N N9DQKi+5TV6FoMIctQ6CV9paWNJTi82ZJk7+IhpNNHp5IT1lvvMxRDTrcqzT6fn154Pd 3JzQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=tPm5MpJ4Hq9rtrWRE3ODStcoOe3DQwTKBSHx37/u5jQ=; b=i4ffEu+cMFnkIRsBgZaDs/r37bLStIM5bA09FrbKc/P8a2a0zJiA/6ibnhOLkQuhA1 7cdJ/7aBxw+WGxhpwO/ORRDgOHa/UByg0wSuN/JvnlnAnKylNbjBe6LSc6587gJbh8BZ WgN4Q/noDZRjoTrfPfagx9cHlCv8q/YrSvnbyqYG6R3vsgdXVEHleu3Nw8p9WkmK7wsV CLNlFE1Oe3ULpWacdqQ5cncdPjkWlQANP+SBYWpcTUFWJJZEOogffspV3czI8dtD6+px j0UbyDi5a6kL+dE8MBRg5nxLJgAdX3h2bXZdPZwWyNgxT0NFvEta0/fhwakZLCY78jCq ZPSw== X-Received: by 10.140.33.202 with SMTP id j68mr607111qgj.41.1435157059599; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:44:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.140.84.137 with SMTP id l9ls884023qgd.41.gmail; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:44:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.99.44 with SMTP id p41mr274489qge.3.1435157058944; Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 07:44:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Erik Natanael Gustafsson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <9ad13518-ec20-418c-8c6c-b0135d397117@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <9a559350-5536-4ea8-8708-73a06e5c8531@googlegroups.com> <9a42afbb-df26-455f-b62c-d89181cad0be@googlegroups.com> <28474f71-596c-4000-8f63-cb431fa47d5b@googlegroups.com> <8339cd6c-3223-419e-8e22-ecb0b773c1c7@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Some questions after reading la .teris. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_255_94252285.1435157058427" X-Original-Sender: eriknatanaelgustafsson@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -3.1 (---) X-Spam_score: -3.1 X-Spam_score_int: -30 X-Spam_bar: --- Content-Length: 8741 ------=_Part_255_94252285.1435157058427 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_256_1402706156.1435157058427" ------=_Part_256_1402706156.1435157058427 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 2:45:57 PM UTC+2, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 3:00 AM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson < > eriknatanae...@gmail.com > wrote: > >> >> >> On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:57:35 AM UTC+2, xorxes wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 6:21 AM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson < >>> eriknatanae...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Tuesday, June 23, 2015 at 12:08:56 AM UTC+2, xorxes wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> I think that's mostly a matter of register. "I am of the opinion that >>>>> ..." is way too formal for something like that. In English you might >>>>> express an opinion by saying "I think that ...". >>>>> >>>> Yes it's too formal, but I wanted to clearly distinguish the different >>>> senses of "to think". "To think" has so many different meanings that it >>>> feels almost meaningless when used in a definition. >>>> >>> >>> But "think that ...", i.e. when the object is a proposition, is pretty >>> much always "jinvi". Other "think"s are usually "pensi". >>> >> But couldn't "think that" just as well be sruma, krici or even smadi >> depending on context? >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I guess the question is, how would I in Lojban distinguish between an >>>> opinion that is a belief concerning something which is true or false and an >>>> opinion that is a subjective view/taste? >>>> >>> >>> "jinvi" for the first one. For the second, I would need an example, but >>> I suppose you are thinking of "by standard" places, as in "ta melbi mi", >>> "that's beautiful to me"? >>> >> I'm sorry, I'm still having trouble seeing "opinion" used for objective >> contexts, but I'm trying to understand. I'll try to come up with clear >> examples of what I mean: >> Objective/true-false unsure statement: "I think Stockholm is a city, but >> I'm not sure." (where think can be replaced by believe) >> Subjective statement: "I think Stockholm is a dreadful city." >> I would use krici or similar for the first and jinvi for the second. Or >> is there another way to state facts with uncertainty that is appropriate >> for the first example? >> > > I would tend to use evidentials/attitudinals for the first, like "la > stokom ju'o cu'i tcadu" > (Conversely, I would use "pe'i" for the second) > If you did want to use a selbri, how about "mi norbirti lo du'u la > stokom tcadu"? > > Thanks, those seems like good ways of expressing that! I'll save them for later reference. di'ai co'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. 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On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 2:45:57 PM UTC+2, Michael Turniansky= wrote:
<= br>
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 3:00 AM, Erik Natanae= l Gustafsson <eriknatanae...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Wednesday, June 24, 2015 at 12:57:35 AM= UTC+2, xorxes wrote:


On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 6:= 21 AM, Erik Natanael Gustafsson <e= riknatanae...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesda= y, June 23, 2015 at 12:08:56 AM UTC+2, xorxes wrote:
 = ;
I think that's mostly a matter of register. "I am= of the opinion that ..." is way too formal for something like that. In Eng= lish you might express an opinion by saying "I think that ...".
=
Yes it's too formal, but I wanted to c= learly distinguish the different senses of "to think". "To think" has so ma= ny different meanings that it feels almost meaningless when used in a defin= ition.

But "think that ...", i.e.= when the object is a proposition, is pretty much always "jinvi".  Oth= er "think"s are usually "pensi".
But couldn't "think that" just as well be sruma, krici or even smadi = depending on context?

&nbs= p;
I guess the question is= , how would I in Lojban distinguish between an opinion that is a belief con= cerning something which is true or false and an opinion that is a subjectiv= e view/taste? 

"jinvi" for the f= irst one. For the second, I would need an example, but I suppose you are th= inking of "by standard" places, as in "ta melbi mi", "that's beautiful to m= e"?
I'm sorry, I'm still ha= ving trouble seeing "opinion" used for objective contexts, but I'm trying t= o understand. I'll try to come up with clear examples of what I mean:
Ob= jective/true-false unsure statement: "I think Stockholm is a city, but I'm = not sure." (where think can be replaced by believe)
Subjective statement= : "I think Stockholm is a dreadful city."
I would use krici or similar f= or the first and jinvi for the second. Or is there another way to state fac= ts with uncertainty that is appropriate for the first example?

  I would tend to use evidentials/attitu= dinals for the first, like "la stokom ju'o cu'i tcadu"
  (Co= nversely, I would use "pe'i" for the second)
  If you did wa= nt to use a selbri, how about "mi norbirti lo du'u la stokom tcadu"?
<= div>
Tha= nks, those seems like good ways of expressing that! I'll save them for late= r reference.

di'ai co'o

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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