Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
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I think la selpa'i has perfectly responded to the question, but I have an=
=20
objection about the English interpretation of {ka}, and a complement to the=
=20
explanation about relation of {ka} and other abstractors.

Le lundi 13 juillet 2015 21:45:58 UTC, selpa'i a =C3=A9crit :
>
>
> One reason why {lo ka} even crops up in these places is that people try=
=20
> to avoid having to repeating sumti, the {ka} is supposed to auto-insert=
=20
> the sumti for them, but this causes problems when using {ka} in places=20
> where you don't want the {ce'u} to be "filled", where you don't want the=
=20
> {ka}-property to be applied to any outside sumti. {nelci} is such an=20
> example. {mi nelci lo ka limna} could mean "I like the property of=20
> swimming", "I like swimmingness", without any indication or claim that=20
> the speaker is swimming.=20


{mi nelci lo ka limna} means rather "I like property of swimmer", not=20
"swimming". {ka} (property) signifies a special case of {si'o} (idea,=20
concept) in Lojban.

Both {lo si'o broda} and {lo ka broda} signify =C2=AB signified =C2=BB (mea=
ning) of=20
predicate {broda}. The difference is that a sentence in {ka}-clause has=20
only one sumti place blank (denoted with {ce'u}), while a sentence in=20
{si'o}-clause has all places blank. {si'o}-{ka}-{du'u} forms full set of=20
predicate abstraction.

lo si'o (ce'u) limna (ce'u) :=20
idea, concept of swimming ; idea, concept that is signified by a predicate=
=20
"X swims in fluid Y."

lo ka (ce'u) limna (zo'e) :=20
property of swimmer ; property that is signified by a predicate "X swims in=
=20
some fluid," "X has property of swimmer in some fluid."

lo ka (zo'e) limna ce'u :=20
property of swimming fluid ; property that is signified by a predicate=20
"someone swims in fluid Y," "Y has property of fluid in which someone=20
swims."

lo du'u (zo'e) limna (zo'e) :=20
=C2=AB signified =C2=BB of a predicate "someone swims in some fluid."

lo se du'u (zo'e) limna (zo'e) :=20
=C2=AB signifying =C2=BB (string of symbols) of a predicate "someone swims =
in some=20
fluid."

mu'o

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think la selpa&#39;i has perfectly responded to the ques=
tion, but I have an objection about the English interpretation of {ka}, and=
 a complement to the explanation about relation of {ka} and other abstracto=
rs.<br><br>Le lundi 13 juillet 2015 21:45:58 UTC, selpa&#39;i a =C3=A9crit=
=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.=
8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><br>One reason why {lo =
ka} even crops up in these places is that people try=20
<br>to avoid having to repeating sumti, the {ka} is supposed to auto-insert=
=20
<br>the sumti for them, but this causes problems when using {ka} in places=
=20
<br>where you don&#39;t want the {ce&#39;u} to be &quot;filled&quot;, where=
 you don&#39;t want the=20
<br>{ka}-property to be applied to any outside sumti. {nelci} is such an=20
<br>example. {mi nelci lo ka limna} could mean &quot;I like the property of=
=20
<br>swimming&quot;, &quot;I like swimmingness&quot;, without any indication=
 or claim that=20
<br>the speaker is swimming. </blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><di=
v><div>{mi nelci lo ka limna} means rather &quot;I like property of swimmer=
&quot;, not &quot;swimming&quot;. {ka} (property) signifies a special case =
of {si&#39;o} (idea, concept) in Lojban.</div></div><div><br></div><div><di=
v>Both {lo si&#39;o broda} and {lo ka broda} signify =C2=AB signified =C2=
=BB (meaning) of predicate {broda}. The difference is that a sentence in {k=
a}-clause has only one sumti place blank (denoted with {ce&#39;u}), while a=
 sentence in {si&#39;o}-clause has all places blank. {si&#39;o}-{ka}-{du=
9;u} forms full set of predicate abstraction.</div><div><br></div><div>lo s=
i&#39;o (ce&#39;u) limna (ce&#39;u) :=C2=A0</div><div>idea, concept of swim=
ming ; idea, concept that is signified by a predicate &quot;X swims in flui=
d Y.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>lo ka (ce&#39;u) limna (zo&#39;e) :=C2=
=A0</div><div>property of swimmer ; property that is signified by a predica=
te &quot;X swims in some fluid,&quot; &quot;X has property of swimmer in so=
me fluid.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>lo ka (zo&#39;e) limna ce&#39;u :=
=C2=A0</div><div>property of swimming fluid ; property that is signified by=
 a predicate &quot;someone swims in fluid Y,&quot; &quot;Y has property of =
fluid in which someone swims.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>lo du&#39;u (z=
o&#39;e) limna (zo&#39;e) :=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=AB signified =C2=BB of a pr=
edicate &quot;someone swims in some fluid.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>l=
o se du&#39;u (zo&#39;e) limna (zo&#39;e) :=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=AB signifyi=
ng =C2=BB (string of symbols) of a predicate &quot;someone swims in some fl=
uid.&quot;</div><div><br></div></div><div>mu&#39;o</div><div><br></div></di=
v>

<p></p>

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