Received: from mail-lb0-f183.google.com ([209.85.217.183]:34006) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZUKAl-000727-K8 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:46:26 -0700 Received: by lbck9 with SMTP id k9sf34658029lbc.1 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:46:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=jzhVWxUeka1lsBRhBhndccHuov4fbTIwA70tlCIPXjM=; b=xD5RPtu+iESYzWYZpLSOI5TrCA0J0ttKTqIPyHyr4D+1UQAw8CpKlwYW0sG3ALkFVd Gb3tGkAaOEoD6SZICqCMEihqDAdY728UIEwgZoA68KZ+RyTZMx3aSMyP2xILrr6BeLTe Kc5UiQExYaBhdudFBYk49TNStTZbEO5SuodwAsZUbr0AwL+ZdVPc+w7frMlkPuTAAXGK bFJ0F3tKI0Vozrg8oMIn9t+0xAiNVvxPx6jR9FRFbSVeD6FX1/hG79MGoVDuPFi/4E/h /QP88xqgesYA9mxyxmftErLdoa/ph83XF3K10NuHqBv/SEvX9KGENZGKO3no2j5x4nh8 6cXA== X-Received: by 10.152.5.226 with SMTP id v2mr164553lav.41.1440531972790; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.153.8.171 with SMTP id dl11ls602478lad.28.gmail; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:46:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.112.122.42 with SMTP id lp10mr8869712lbb.5.1440531971150; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com. [2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jv9si179363wid.0.2015.08.25.12.46.11 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::233; Received: by mail-wi0-x233.google.com with SMTP id dq5so25709786wid.1 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:46:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.180.83.137 with SMTP id q9mr7769584wiy.68.1440531971002; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:46:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.227.8 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Aug 2015 12:45:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Michael Turniansky Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2015 15:45:31 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban attempt: please correct To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044401966b5939051e27fc55 X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mturniansky@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 11041 --f46d044401966b5939051e27fc55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Timothy Lawrence < timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote: > I posted my Lojban attempt on #ckule yesterday: > > .za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a.i > .ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a.i > .ei ma'a cilre ma'a > > Could someone correct it? I was trying to say the following: > > (I observe that) language separates you and me. > (I deduce that) humanity unites you and me. > We must learn one another. > > I am doubtful that my Lojban is correct (especially the last sentence). I > used some vocabulary I found on jbovlaste but there's probably better words? > You probably don't really want "tolxregau" here, although from a poetic sense, it can work. It means to separate something into its component parts. But I expect you are looking for something more along the lines of "za'a lo bangu cu te sepli mi do" (I observe that language is a barrier between me and you) (if you want a more universal me and you, use "za'a lo bangu cu te sepli lo prenu lo [bi'u] prenu" For your second sentence, I expect you really want "ka" not "nu", because you are talking about our quality of being human (our humanity, not our event of being human). Also, if you really want "me" and "you", not "me" and "you" and "others", use mi'o, not ma'a. That being said, mi'o and ma'a are already masses, so don't really belong as the second argument of gumgau. Try this: "ja'o lo ka remna cu gumgau mi jo'u do mio" As for your last sentence, "ma'a (or mi'o)" are not facts. You can't cilre them. But you can learn about them, so they go in the third argument of cilre. Now, since you want mutually, you will find "simxu" is your friend: "ei mi'o cu simxu lo nu cilre zo'e" One other small point. ".i" is traditionally conceptualized as the beginning of second and subsequent sentences, not the end, so the more typically orthography would be (with your original sentences): za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a .i.ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a .i .ei ma'a cilre ma'a: Note also that your pause (".") before za'a and ja'o, while not grammatically incorrect, is unnecessary and odd-looking. > deltab thought my attempt reads as "You know, languages unmix us. > Therefore, being human aggregates us. We have to learn us." > > Does "ja'o" definitely translate to "therefore"? Because I wasn't > intending on using it to link the two sentences. > > Absolutely not. If you wanted to link them like that, you would have used a construction like ".i ja'e bo" deltab seems confused. > A few more questions: > > - How does one say "Does that make any sense?" in Lojban? > Well, "xu di'u se smuni lo seldji be mi" means "does that last utterance mean what I wanted"? Or you could try "ki'a pei" ("are you confused by what I said?") - How does one say "How does one say (English) in Lojban?" in Lojban? > ma xe fanva zoi gy (put English here) gy la lojban ("what is a translation of ____ in lojban?") --gejyspa > Thanks > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --f46d044401966b5939051e27fc55 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Timothy Lawrence <= ;t= imothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:
I posted my Lojban attempt on #ckule yesterday:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 .za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a.i
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 .ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a.i
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 .ei ma'a cilre ma'a

Could someone correct it? I was trying to say the following:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (I observe that) language separates you and me.=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (I deduce that) humanity unites you and me.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 We must learn one another.

I am doubtful that my Lojban is correct (especially the last sentence). I u= sed some vocabulary I found on jbovlaste but there's probably better wo= rds?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0You probably d= on't really want "tolxregau" here, although from a poetic sen= se, it can work. =C2=A0 It means to separate something into its component p= arts.=C2=A0 But I expect you are looking for something more along the lines= of "za'a lo bangu cu te sepli mi do" (I observe that languag= e is a barrier between me and you) (if you want a more universal me and you= , use "za'a lo bangu cu te sepli lo prenu lo [bi'u] prenu"= ;

=C2=A0 For your second sentence, I expect you re= ally want "ka" not "nu", because you are talking about = our quality of being human (our humanity, not our event of being human).=C2= =A0 Also, if you =C2=A0really want "me" and "you", not = "me" and "you" and "others", use mi'o, no= t ma'a.=C2=A0 That being said, mi'o and ma'a are already masses= , so don't really belong as the second argument of gumgau. Try this: &q= uot;ja'o lo ka remna cu gumgau mi jo'u do mio"

<= /div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0As for your last sentence, "ma'a (or mi'= ;o)" are not facts.=C2=A0 You can't cilre them. But you can learn = about them, so they go in the third argument of cilre.=C2=A0 Now, since you= want mutually, you will find "simxu" is your friend: "ei mi= 'o cu simxu =C2=A0lo nu cilre zo'e"

= =C2=A0 One other small point. =C2=A0".i" is traditionally concept= ualized as the beginning of second and subsequent sentences, not the end, s= o the more typically orthography would be (with your original sentences):za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a
.i.ja'o lo nu remna cu g= umgau ma'a
.i .ei ma'a cilre ma'= ;a:

=C2=A0 Note also that your pause (".") bef= ore za'a and ja'o, while not grammatically incorrect, is unnecessar= y and odd-looking.



deltab thought my attempt reads as "You know, languages unmix us. Ther= efore, being human aggregates us. We have to learn us."

Does "ja'o" definitely translate to "therefore"? Be= cause I wasn't intending on using it to link the two sentences.

=C2=A0 Absolutely not.=C2=A0 If you wanted to link th= em like that, you would have used a construction like ".i ja'e bo&= quot; =C2=A0deltab seems confused.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
A few more questions:

- How does one say "Does that make any sense?" in Lojban?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Well, "xu di'u se smuni = lo seldji be mi" means "does that last utterance mean what I want= ed"?=C2=A0 Or you could try "ki'a pei" ("are you co= nfused by what I said?")=C2=A0


- How does one say "How does one say (English) in Lojban?" in Loj= ban?

ma xe fanva zoi gy (put English he= re) gy la lojban ("what is a translation of ____ in lojban?")
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa

=

Thanks

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to = lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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