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spf=pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 2a01:111:f400:fc0c::699 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=qut.edu.au Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 20250 --_000_DM2PR01MB38190FCBE4CA62F55C668F4EB600DM2PR01MB381prodex_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you all :) "fendi" and "simbi'o" look to be what I intended. When I searched for "sepa= rate", jbovlaste didn't show "fendi" so perhaps that could be updated. I'm not sure why I didn't find "simbi'o" in my last search: perhaps I searc= hed for "unites" instead of "unite". My work-in-progress is: za'a lo bangu cu fendi ma'a.i ja'o lo ka remna cu simbi'o ma'a.i .ei ma'a cilre fi ma'a To clarify, my intended meaning is: (I observe that) language (is something that) divides/separates us-(inclusi= ve of you and me, but also could be everyone). (From my deduction) humanity-(the condition of being human) unites us-(incl= usive of you and me, but also could be everyone). Each of us-(inclusive of you and me, but also could be everyone) must learn= (about) one another. I hope I am getting closer? I haven't yet learnt "ka" and don't fully know the difference between "lo n= u remna" vs "lo ka remnu" - is there a page I should read? Where is the best place to learn about "soi", "vo'a" and "ka"? The jbovlast= e definitions were unhelpful (they each seem more like a reminder than a fu= ll instruction on how to use the word) and the CLL is opaque. The jbovlaste definition was also very sparse for "cilre" so the difference= between x2 and x3 is still not very clear, hence my erroneous usage. ________________________________ From: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com = on behalf of selpa'i Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2015 5:59 AM To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban attempt: please correct la'o me. Timothy Lawrence .me cusku di'e: > I posted my Lojban attempt on #ckule yesterday: > > .za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a.i > .ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a.i > .ei ma'a cilre ma'a I think you are confused about the function of the "." dot character/letter. Its function is *not* to start a sentence. The dot {.} is a consonant (pronounced as a glottal stop (or pause)). It precedes words that (would otherwise) begin with a vowel, e.g. {.au}, {.arbaleta}, and also the word {.i}. The word {.i} is the sentence separator, not the dot. > Could someone correct it? I was trying to say the following: > > (I observe that) language separates you and me. > (I deduce that) humanity unites you and me. > We must learn one another. There are a lot of possible ways to translate this depending on the exact meaning of the words. E.g. is "language" an agentive cause or separation or not? What sense of humanity is intended? Who is "we"? Etc etc= . One option: za'a lo bangu cu te sepli do mi .i ja'o lo ka xendo cu te jorne do mi .i mi'o nitcu lo ka simxu lo ka tadni (you could also use {simxu lo ka cilre} if you really wanted; the whole text is highly metaphorical anyway, but {mi cilre do} does sound a bit odd to most Lojbanists) If you can answer the above questions then I can do another translation. My translation was just a wild guess. > Does "ja'o" definitely translate to "therefore"? Because I wasn't > intending on using it to link the two sentences. It marks your sentence as a conclusion, but it doesn't have to be the conclusion of the previous sentence. mi'e la selpa'i mu'o ________________________________ From: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com = on behalf of Michael Turniansky Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2015 5:45 AM To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban attempt: please correct On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Timothy Lawrence > wrote: I posted my Lojban attempt on #ckule yesterday: .za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a.i .ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a.i .ei ma'a cilre ma'a Could someone correct it? I was trying to say the following: (I observe that) language separates you and me. (I deduce that) humanity unites you and me. We must learn one another. I am doubtful that my Lojban is correct (especially the last sentence). I u= sed some vocabulary I found on jbovlaste but there's probably better words? You probably don't really want "tolxregau" here, although from a poeti= c sense, it can work. It means to separate something into its component p= arts. But I expect you are looking for something more along the lines of "= za'a lo bangu cu te sepli mi do" (I observe that language is a barrier betw= een me and you) (if you want a more universal me and you, use "za'a lo bang= u cu te sepli lo prenu lo [bi'u] prenu" For your second sentence, I expect you really want "ka" not "nu", because= you are talking about our quality of being human (our humanity, not our ev= ent of being human). Also, if you really want "me" and "you", not "me" an= d "you" and "others", use mi'o, not ma'a. That being said, mi'o and ma'a a= re already masses, so don't really belong as the second argument of gumgau.= Try this: "ja'o lo ka remna cu gumgau mi jo'u do mio" As for your last sentence, "ma'a (or mi'o)" are not facts. You can't ci= lre them. But you can learn about them, so they go in the third argument of= cilre. Now, since you want mutually, you will find "simxu" is your friend= : "ei mi'o cu simxu lo nu cilre zo'e" One other small point. ".i" is traditionally conceptualized as the begin= ning of second and subsequent sentences, not the end, so the more typically= orthography would be (with your original sentences): za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a .i.ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a .i .ei ma'a cilre ma'a: Note also that your pause (".") before za'a and ja'o, while not grammatic= ally incorrect, is unnecessary and odd-looking. deltab thought my attempt reads as "You know, languages unmix us. Therefore= , being human aggregates us. We have to learn us." Does "ja'o" definitely translate to "therefore"? Because I wasn't intending= on using it to link the two sentences. Absolutely not. If you wanted to link them like that, you would have use= d a construction like ".i ja'e bo" deltab seems confused. ________________________________ From: la .xabltos. Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2015 5:03 AM To: Lojban Beginners Cc: Timothy Lawrence Subject: Re: Lojban attempt: please correct I am still learning myself, but I think it would be za'a le bangu cu fendi do .e mi gi'e lo nu remna cu simbi'o do .e mi .ei ma'a cilre soi vo'a I'm not entirely sure about the last line, but I think it is close. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --_000_DM2PR01MB38190FCBE4CA62F55C668F4EB600DM2PR01MB381prodex_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank you all :)


"fendi" and "simbi'o" look to be what I intended. Wh= en I searched for "separate", jbovlaste didn't show "fendi&q= uot; so perhaps that could be updated.

I'm not sure why I didn't find "simbi'o" in my last search: pe= rhaps I searched for "unites" instead of "unite".


My work-in-progress is:


za'a lo = bangu cu fendi ma'a.i

ja'o lo = ka remna cu simbi'o ma'a.i

.ei ma'a= cilre fi ma'a


To clarify, my intended meaning is:


(I obser= ve that) language (is something that) divides/separates us-(inclusive of yo= u and me, but also could be everyone).

(From my= deduction) humanity-(the condition of being human) unites us-(inclusive of= you and me, but also could be everyone).

Each of = us-(inclusive of you and me, but also could be everyone) must learn (about)= one another.


I hope I am getting closer?


I haven't yet learnt "ka" and don't fully know the differ= ence between "lo nu remna" vs "lo ka remnu" - is there = a page I should read?


Where is the best place to learn about "soi", "vo'a"= and "ka"? The jbovlaste de= finitions were unhelpful (they each seem more like a reminder tha= n a full instruction on how to use the word) and the CLL is opaque.<= /p>


The jbovlaste definition was also very sparse for "cilre" so t= he difference between x2 and x3 is still not very clear, hence my erroneous= usage.


From: = lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com> on behalf of selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
Sent: We= dnesday, 26 August 2015 5:59 AM
To: = ;lojban-beginners@goo= glegroups.com
Subject:=  Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban attempt: please correct
 
la'o me. Timothy Lawrence .me cusku di'e:
> I posted my Lojban attempt on #ckule yesterday:
>
>       .za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a.i=
>       .ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a.i=
>       .ei ma'a cilre ma'a

I think you are confused about the function of the "." dot
character/letter. Its function is *not* to start a sentence.

The dot {.} is a consonant (pronounced as a glottal stop (or pause)). It precedes words that (would otherwise) begin with a vowel, e.g. {.au},
{.arbaleta}, and also the word {.i}.

The word {.i} is the sentence separator, not the dot.

> Could someone correct it? I was trying to say the following:
>
>       (I observe that) language separate= s you and me.
>       (I deduce that) humanity unites yo= u and me.
>       We must learn one another.

There are a lot of possible ways to translate this depending on the
exact meaning of the words. E.g. is "language" an agentive cause = or
separation or not? What sense of humanity is intended? Who is "we"= ;? Etc etc.

One option:

za'a lo bangu cu te sepli do mi
.i ja'o lo ka xendo cu te jorne do mi
.i mi'o nitcu lo ka simxu lo ka tadni

(you could also use {simxu lo ka cilre} if you really wanted; the whole
text is highly metaphorical anyway, but {mi cilre do} does sound a bit
odd to most Lojbanists)

If you can answer the above questions then I can do another translation. My translation was just a wild guess.

> Does "ja'o" definitely translate to "therefore"? B= ecause I wasn't
> intending on using it to link the two sentences.

It marks your sentence as a conclusion, but it doesn't have to be the
conclusion of the previous sentence.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o


From: lojban-beginne= rs@googlegroups.com <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com> on behalf of = Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2015 5:45 AM
To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Lojban attempt: please correct<= /font>
 


On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Timothy Lawrenc= e <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.= au> wrote:
I posted my Lojban attempt on #ckule yesterday:

        .za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a.i
        .ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a.i
        .ei ma'a cilre ma'a

Could someone correct it? I was trying to say the following:

        (I observe that) language separates you and me.=
        (I deduce that) humanity unites you and me.
        We must learn one another.

I am doubtful that my Lojban is correct (especially the last sentence). I u= sed some vocabulary I found on jbovlaste but there's probably better words?=

     You probably don't really want "tolxregau&quo= t; here, although from a poetic sense, it can work.   It means to sepa= rate something into its component parts.  But I expect you are looking= for something more along the lines of "za'a lo bangu cu te sepli mi do" (I observe that language is a barrier between me and you) (if you= want a more universal me and you, use "za'a lo bangu cu te sepli lo p= renu lo [bi'u] prenu"

  For your second sentence, I expect you really want "ka&quo= t; not "nu", because you are talking about our quality of being h= uman (our humanity, not our event of being human).  Also, if you  = ;really want "me" and "you", not "me" and &qu= ot;you" and "others", use mi'o, not ma'a.  That being said, mi'o and ma'a are already masses, so don'= t really belong as the second argument of gumgau. Try this: "ja'o lo k= a remna cu gumgau mi jo'u do mio"

   As for your last sentence, "ma'a (or mi'o)" are= not facts.  You can't cilre them. But you can learn about them, so th= ey go in the third argument of cilre.  Now, since you want mutually, y= ou will find "simxu" is your friend: "ei mi'o cu simxu  = ;lo nu cilre zo'e"

  One other small point.  ".i" is traditionally co= nceptualized as the beginning of second and subsequent sentences, not the e= nd, so the more typically orthography would be (with your original sentence= s):
za'a lo bangu cu tolxregau ma'a
.i.ja'o lo nu remna cu gumgau ma'a
.= i .ei ma'a cilre ma'a:

  Note also that your pa= use (".") before za'a and ja'o, while not grammatically incorrect= , is unnecessary and odd-looking.



deltab thought my attempt reads as "You know, languages unmix us. Ther= efore, being human aggregates us. We have to learn us."

Does "ja'o" definitely translate to "therefore"? Becaus= e I wasn't intending on using it to link the two sentences.

  Absolutely not.  = If you wanted to link them like that, you would have used a construction li= ke ".i ja'e bo"  deltab seems confused.
   

From: la .xabltos. <hobb= letoe@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 August 2015 5:03 AM
To: Lojban Beginners
Cc: Timothy Lawrence
Subject: Re: Lojban attempt: please correct
 
I am still learning myself, but I think it would be

za'a le bangu cu fen= di do .e mi
gi'e lo nu remna cu&= nbsp;simbi'o do .e mi
.ei ma'a cilre soi v= o'a 

I'm not entirely sure about the last line, but I think it is close.

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