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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban attempt: please correct
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Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 11:01:14 +0200
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la'o me. Timothy Lawrence .gy cusku di'e
> "fendi" and "simbi'o" look to be what I intended. When I searched for
> "separate", jbovlaste didn't show "fendi" so perhaps that could be updated.
>
> I'm not sure why I didn't find "simbi'o" in my last search: perhaps I
> searched for "unites" instead of "unite".

I don't think {simbi'o} means what you want. {simbi'o} means "x1 
(plural) become mutual in property x2".

> My work-in-progress is:
>
> za'a lo bangu cu fendi ma'a.i
>
> ja'o lo ka remna cu simbi'o ma'a.i
>
> .ei ma'a cilre fi ma'a

Not that it's wrong, but I'm curious if your placement of the {.i} is 
for artistic purposes or some other reason. Usually {.i} is seen at the 
beginning of a line, but there's no rule that prescribes that. :)

> To clarify, my intended meaning is:
>
> (I observe that) language (is something that) divides/separates
> us-(inclusive of you and me, but also could be everyone).
>
> (From my deduction) humanity-(the condition of being human) unites
> us-(inclusive of you and me, but also could be everyone).
>
> Each of us-(inclusive of you and me, but also could be everyone) must
> learn (about) one another.

Ah, okay!

The only complaint I have is the use of {simbi'o}. Also you're losing 
the parallel structure because {fendi} is agentive while {simbi'o} is 
not. You could go the cheap route and use {to'e fendi} for the second 
line...

Btw, the literal (non-metaphorical) translation would probably use 
{kampu}, e.g. {lo ka remna cu kampu ma'a} "Being human is universal to 
us" ("All of us are human"), which is true but tosses away the 
metaphorical sense of "being connected".

You could always go back to {jorne}, or do something a little more 
verbose that gets the point across, like {lo nu ro ma'a remna cu rinka 
lo nu ma'a jonsi'u} or similar.

> I hope I am getting closer?

Definitely :)

> I haven't yet learnt "ka" and don't fully know the difference between
> "lo nu remna" vs "lo ka remnu" - is there a page I should read?

Maybe https://lojban.github.io/cll/11/4/ helps, though CLL's take on 
{ka} is slightly archaic.

There really should be a page dedicated to {ka} vs {nu}, since it's a 
very common question.

Here's a recent discussion about the difference:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban-beginners/ditWcREbjFU

> Where is the best place to learn about "soi", "vo'a" and "ka"? The
> jbovlaste definitions were unhelpful (they each seem more like a
> reminder than a full instruction on how to use the word) and the CLL is
> opaque.

The cmavo definitions are usually the worst place to learn a new cmavo. 
CLL is helpful in the cases where the understanding of the language 
hasn't changed over time (for example {soi} isn't really used anymore, 
and most proficient speakers generally discourage its use), but CLL can 
be difficult for beginners.

A good place to learn about anything is always the IRC channel:

https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net/lojban

(Don't quit if you don't get an answer immediately, we're all in 
different time zones and not everyone is constantly staring at the channel)

> The jbovlaste definition was also very sparse for "cilre" so the
> difference between x2 and x3 is still not very clear, hence my erroneous
> usage.

We're slowly working on improving the clarity of the definitions.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

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