Received: from mail-qg0-f57.google.com ([209.85.192.57]:33781) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZUelj-0001Mi-8H for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:45:57 -0700 Received: by qgeb6 with SMTP id b6sf51653510qge.0 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:45:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=8j/PemyvlAyeQGEsDXbm34WM5G6E/07wRsVGtHofNXg=; b=DBeANnugTP2fLOZ5s0pHT73NeyZDw4Z6Nt5S7ylZX2KuO0O4qyUvlq4Sum0pE77Scr sR6UAt1e9i7watqPM6OV+Ie1PIgxQEHlFntX0M4XEnTX0AQJHxY2g3mpMFswww33n3cM bgdMy502SXvgwRvMKOVZJuBGQAzSP2hlnXvcgZgO0oCbfk+pql7MnG5CGu5d7WRRK8Q6 QkQSJABgHjbuDPh+iK47nE/2IlZAlNZB7JckqXl9HcCiJkf/qZx0e3ricNRrEJ2zVCLx 7UXxLadegOBSxOuTt7lHQl8DD5igTWeaZNAr+4D5e3X5XZJ9FlGnriklIQV5niMoBpnq PP3A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=8j/PemyvlAyeQGEsDXbm34WM5G6E/07wRsVGtHofNXg=; b=y9UMmQTblwvpXp64Kn2/R6ltzqDm/tEYSjHU9Z0RRrZiK3cvtuczsWWYMHXeEMYNae sMNff2HKkfPRDe5mAbiKyRfdVbV372zcUTaLfiqTJRduY6oorvj6JzHj51ntUeeaWyjV Sii315x2Mfd0ZpXV0WmxSFvILdvFA5CmMxRlCqlf+0xtql/2h5iOetRntkZVfAcz2r3V ffEVoz2/JwKXwhmLUSTH7YhXYyE742t1EbKGH0IX28IoYk1FMuOhm9vm1rOdabK2EJgN PWcEbDXekzOH6vSwQHyAIbAdxxo9aG93bKHwT3p1LUyu1A4LhspPDsvsR2xaXi7KSxtc nBpQ== X-Received: by 10.182.112.135 with SMTP id iq7mr133038obb.23.1440611145022; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:45:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.181.71 with SMTP id du7ls4969605obc.42.gmail; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:45:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.213.164 with SMTP id nt4mr263804obc.39.1440611144035; Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2015 10:45:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "la .xabltos." To: Lojban Beginners Message-Id: <80479aa0-ebcc-4105-9a9d-0850992de1c9@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <55DDE77F.8010804@gmx.de> References: <76a5b632-69f7-42af-9f57-c66a889b8044@googlegroups.com> <55DDE77F.8010804@gmx.de> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Trying my first translation ... a few questions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_240_1749587924.1440611143587" X-Original-Sender: hobbletoe@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Content-Length: 12679 ------=_Part_240_1749587924.1440611143587 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_241_1916074711.1440611143588" ------=_Part_241_1916074711.1440611143588 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 12:21:22 PM UTC-4, selpa'i wrote: > > la .xabyltos. cu cusku di'e=20 > > Thank you again. I'm really beginning to think that this will be much= =20 > > more rewarding than just copying some of the shorter texts and sorting= =20 > > through it. This will really make me think about what I want to say an= d=20 > > how I need to say it.=20 > > From experience I know that few things will expose one's gaps quicker=20 > than trying to translate something challenging into Lojban. I strongly=20 > recommend it.=20 > > > My next question is simple, I believe, and touches upon something said= =20 > > previously.=20 > >=20 > > He has lost his ball.=20 > > .i ko'a pu cirko lo ko'a bolci=20 > >=20 > > or=20 > >=20 > > .i ko'a pu cirko lo bolci=20 > >=20 > > While talking about "his bark" yesterday, it was noted that ke'a was no= t=20 > > really needed due to context. Is it the same here? Would I need ko'a= =20 > > when talking about "his" ball?=20 > > Well, with the {ko'a} it means "his ball", and without it it means=20 > "ball". You can leave it out when it's obvious, but it may often not be.= =20 > > But maybe your questions arises from the whole {cirko} issue, where in=20 > my translation the {ke'a} disappeared due to {cirko lo ka gercmo}. I'll= =20 > talk about this more below.=20 > > > Another question deals with a ... I guess you would call it a split=20 > > quote (and actually the same question from above).=20 > >=20 > > "Little Puppy," said Bird. "You have lost your ball."=20 > >=20 > > .i lu doi la cmalu cityge'u li'u se cusku la cipni .i lu do pu cirko lo= =20 > > do bolci li'u=20 > >=20 > > Is this proper? Do I have to mark Bird as saying the second sentence,= =20 > > or is that understood from context? If it does need marked, to I do it= =20 > > at the beginning or the end of the sentence, or would that be a matter= =20 > > of preference?=20 > > It is proper. It's also totally fine to have something after {.i} that=20 > isn't a complete sentence, like a sumti for instance. Context takes care= =20 > of who said it, just like in English.=20 > > Another very common method of doing split quotes that is used in large=20 > works such as Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz is to use {sei}=20 > like so:=20 > > .i =C2=ABlu doi la cmalu cityge'u =E2=80=94sei la cipni cu cusku=E2=80=94= do pu cirko lo do=20 > bolci li'u=C2=BB=20 > > (The em dashes are used to make the inserted material more readily=20 > discernible. This is optional.)=20 > > With this method the whole quote remains in one piece.=20 > > I had actually seen that in one of the stories that I copied and thought,= =20 "I have to remember this." Actually using it, it should stay in my head=20 better. =20 > > One last question from la selpa'i post. He used the word zvajuko, (= =20 > > ... te'a zvajuko lo keldai ) but I not quite sure what it means. I kno= w=20 > > that zva is a rafsi form of zvati, but I haven't been able to figure ou= t=20 > > quite what juko would refer to.=20 > > It's the zi'evla version of {zvajuncri}. See=20 > > http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/addvalsi.html?valsi=3Dzvajuko=20 > =20 > > As mentioned earlier, I understand {cirko}'s x2 to always be a property= =20 > abstraction, and saying {cirko lo keldai} is either non-sense or=20 > implicit sumti-raising (or sloppy speech). In Lojban, losing a toy is=20 > not the same thing as losing one's patience. English conflates these=20 > different senses of "lose" into a single word, but Lojban tries to avoid= =20 > such conflations. Using {cirko} for both senses (and all the other=20 > senses of "lose") would only import the polysemy of English into Lojban.= =20 > Therefore I use {zvajuko} (a contraction from "ZVAti dJUno cirKO") for=20 > the sense of "losing the property of knowing where something is".=20 > > This is part of what I like about Lojban. I'm just not used to thinking= =20 in this manner. That and a lack of vocabulary. So, I shouldn't be using= =20 cirko in this translation (as everything that he loses is a tangible=20 object), and should use zvajuncri instead. I think that this separation of physical/non-physical may be a harder=20 concept to beat into my head than some others. That and using an=20 abstract. I think that might be my bigger hangup as it is not something=20 that I generally consider in English. Thank you again for your time, knowledge and patience. I really appreciate= =20 it. =20 > mi'e la selpa'i mu'o=20 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_241_1916074711.1440611143588 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 12:21:22 PM UTC-4, selpa'i wro= te:
la .xabyltos. cu cusku di'e
> Thank you again. =C2=A0I'm really beginning to think that this= will be much
> more rewarding than just copying some of the shorter texts and sor= ting
> through it. =C2=A0This will really make me think about what I want= to say and
> how I need to say it.

=C2=A0From experience I know that few things will expose one's gaps= quicker=20
than trying to translate something challenging into Lojban. I strongly= =20
recommend it.

> My next question is simple, I believe, and touches upon something = said
> previously.
>
> He has lost his ball.
> .i ko'a pu cirko lo ko'a bolci
>
> or
>
> .i ko'a pu cirko lo bolci
>
> While talking about "his bark" yesterday, it was noted t= hat ke'a was not
> really needed due to context. =C2=A0Is it the same here? =C2=A0Wou= ld I need ko'a
> when talking about "his" ball?

Well, with the {ko'a} it means "his ball", and without it= it means=20
"ball". You can leave it out when it's obvious, but it ma= y often not be.

But maybe your questions arises from the whole {cirko} issue, where in= =20
my translation the {ke'a} disappeared due to {cirko lo ka gercmo}. = I'll=20
talk about this more below.

> Another question deals with a ... I guess you would call it a spli= t
> quote (and actually the same question from above).
>
> "Little Puppy," said Bird. =C2=A0"You have lost you= r ball."
>
> .i lu doi la cmalu cityge'u li'u se cusku la cipni .i lu d= o pu cirko lo
> do bolci li'u
>
> Is this proper? =C2=A0Do I have to mark Bird as saying the second = sentence,
> or is that understood from context? =C2=A0If it does need marked, = to I do it
> at the beginning or the end of the sentence, or would that be a ma= tter
> of preference?

It is proper. It's also totally fine to have something after {.i} t= hat=20
isn't a complete sentence, like a sumti for instance. Context takes= care=20
of who said it, just like in English.

Another very common method of doing split quotes that is used in large= =20
works such as Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz is to use {sei}= =20
like so:

.i =C2=ABlu doi la cmalu cityge'u =E2=80=94sei la cipni cu cusku=E2= =80=94 do pu cirko lo do=20
bolci li'u=C2=BB

(The em dashes are used to make the inserted material more readily=20
discernible. This is optional.)

With this method the whole quote remains in one piece.

I had actually seen that in one of the stories that I= copied and thought, "I have to remember this."=C2=A0 Actually us= ing it, it should stay in my head better.
=C2=A0
> One last question from =C2=A0la selpa'i post. = =C2=A0He used the word zvajuko, (
> ... te'a zvajuko lo keldai ) but I not quite sure what it mean= s. =C2=A0I know
> that zva is a rafsi form of zvati, but I haven't been able to = figure out
> quite what juko would refer to.

It's the zi'evla version of {zvajuncri}. See

http://jbovlas= te.lojban.org/dict/addvalsi.html?valsi=3Dzvajuko

As mentioned earlier, I understand {cirko}'s x2 to always be a prop= erty=20
abstraction, and saying {cirko lo keldai} is either non-sense or=20
implicit sumti-raising (or sloppy speech). In Lojban, losing a toy is= =20
not the same thing as losing one's patience. English conflates thes= e=20
different senses of "lose" into a single word, but Lojban tri= es to avoid=20
such conflations. Using {cirko} for both senses (and all the other=20
senses of "lose") would only import the polysemy of English i= nto Lojban.=20
Therefore I use {zvajuko} (a contraction from "ZVAti dJUno cirKO&q= uot;) for=20
the sense of "losing the property of knowing where something is&qu= ot;.

This is part of what I like about Lojban.=C2=A0 I'= ;m just not used to thinking in this manner.=C2=A0 That and a lack of vocab= ulary.=C2=A0 So, I shouldn't be using cirko in this translation (as eve= rything that he loses is a tangible object), and should use zvajuncri inste= ad.

I think that this separation of physical/non-p= hysical may=C2=A0be a harder concept to beat into my head than some others.= =C2=A0 That and using an abstract.=C2=A0 I think that might be my bigger ha= ngup as it is not something that I generally consider in English.

Thank you again for your time, knowledge and patience.=C2= =A0 I really appreciate it.

=C2=A0
mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

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