Received: from mail-qg0-f60.google.com ([209.85.192.60]:33148) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZVNCE-0002sr-5E for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:12:12 -0700 Received: by qgeb6 with SMTP id b6sf15172510qge.0 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:12:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Iy5rMSLC5mBwkjkgw2YBEEGexzSpepaORA8GgGVYn3A=; b=lRR8s+bXb02nAXVJTu2tdp+9pxZ6Aq/e7MdmyMtGhdInhv7K09KPvLoic27lfoP6Es ila4WeYrZ/KvdeLuqYIzlgDfps5G0EdiZ5ryVyCjRba1l94GIuJxX1bgNZQGlwZEinjR V2KZ/fa/8OOWaqVBYtdbgDvBaSBnnK2wDmHle+NmzuD6P1iGmfFDFpFgwDM+99KQmBea 5lpMZNdD7Bidp66tkkU1ykXOs+69tdk0iL/zdpMHMZDGYExsT38mqvi51XHJ29pDCIBy urPECKgk24jsQrE26cKGwomVHTPqhi0ayNTcoOG6A+qFMMoE10yUzP6Ij2BN8v3cg0YZ tD0Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Iy5rMSLC5mBwkjkgw2YBEEGexzSpepaORA8GgGVYn3A=; b=j7W5aDtqZs8gK1r8JpLQKaiNNSGPGJ4mSXlKbtuWvj7Nom04fSRcGizeRe2XSjrGg8 Ce5ieYzoo0e0mTMaGYcYvzuqAwgrpNEeyaASB439oH2bQgKFkaozBfXZaUdI9YcdbL+4 vj7HW4eMNqNgd6arnVCdqUlyJePJS5ksNkV0Ut3pkwLJ/4uJ0hedt2vOjfndQ6t9YBdB lfZZyeBxJPtwvXWfWpqv51HZ43Db6L3TyZyZNSMF9idqD9sSQhAU2toOeWElnxPGJU9M jbH3EA6virZmF2zXv4OGiSz0pkxgGj7OM81PVJekRP3SVEC6OFevcc3QWUJMzVzvB7Vm 07XA== X-Received: by 10.182.114.196 with SMTP id ji4mr178275obb.11.1440781920707; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:12:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.85.167 with SMTP id i7ls1825435obz.1.gmail; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:11:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.58.81 with SMTP id o17mr51420obq.37.1440781919807; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:11:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "la .xabltos." To: Lojban Beginners Message-Id: <054ae82a-9842-47bb-8fab-48f57d4684c0@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <80479aa0-ebcc-4105-9a9d-0850992de1c9@googlegroups.com> References: <76a5b632-69f7-42af-9f57-c66a889b8044@googlegroups.com> <55DDE77F.8010804@gmx.de> <80479aa0-ebcc-4105-9a9d-0850992de1c9@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Trying my first translation ... a few questions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_163_2132183748.1440781919237" X-Original-Sender: hobbletoe@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- Content-Length: 15867 ------=_Part_163_2132183748.1440781919237 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_164_1115101577.1440781919238" ------=_Part_164_1115101577.1440781919238 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Continuing on, I find that I'm not too sure about identifying amounts. I'm= =20 also not quite sure what to do with "them" in the second sentence. It=20 seems like it falls into context again. Bird says You have lost your toys. You have lost them all. .i do zvajuncri lo do keldai .i do zvajuncri ro da And I had also forgotten the title of the book, or I would have remembered= =20 that not everything is tangible that he looses. I am assuming that this is= =20 where I would need cirko and not zvajuncri. But then again, they treat it= =20 as a physical thing in the book. The Mouse finds it later in the park, and= =20 is using it. "Oh Puppy," says Bird. "You have lost your bark!" lu .ue doi la cityge'u - sei la cipni cu cusku - do cirko lo ka do gercmo= =20 li'u That is it for my questions today. I'm trying to keep it to just a few=20 questions at a time so that I don't get too far ahead of myself. It also= =20 gives me time to sit and ponder before I ask something silly. Thanks in advance for any help given. I really do appreciate it. On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 1:45:43 PM UTC-4, la .xabltos. wrote: > > > On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 12:21:22 PM UTC-4, selpa'i wrote: >> >> la .xabyltos. cu cusku di'e=20 >> > Thank you again. I'm really beginning to think that this will be much= =20 >> > more rewarding than just copying some of the shorter texts and sorting= =20 >> > through it. This will really make me think about what I want to say= =20 >> and=20 >> > how I need to say it.=20 >> >> From experience I know that few things will expose one's gaps quicker= =20 >> than trying to translate something challenging into Lojban. I strongly= =20 >> recommend it.=20 >> >> > My next question is simple, I believe, and touches upon something said= =20 >> > previously.=20 >> >=20 >> > He has lost his ball.=20 >> > .i ko'a pu cirko lo ko'a bolci=20 >> >=20 >> > or=20 >> >=20 >> > .i ko'a pu cirko lo bolci=20 >> >=20 >> > While talking about "his bark" yesterday, it was noted that ke'a was= =20 >> not=20 >> > really needed due to context. Is it the same here? Would I need ko'a= =20 >> > when talking about "his" ball?=20 >> >> Well, with the {ko'a} it means "his ball", and without it it means=20 >> "ball". You can leave it out when it's obvious, but it may often not be.= =20 >> >> But maybe your questions arises from the whole {cirko} issue, where in= =20 >> my translation the {ke'a} disappeared due to {cirko lo ka gercmo}. I'll= =20 >> talk about this more below.=20 >> >> > Another question deals with a ... I guess you would call it a split=20 >> > quote (and actually the same question from above).=20 >> >=20 >> > "Little Puppy," said Bird. "You have lost your ball."=20 >> >=20 >> > .i lu doi la cmalu cityge'u li'u se cusku la cipni .i lu do pu cirko l= o=20 >> > do bolci li'u=20 >> >=20 >> > Is this proper? Do I have to mark Bird as saying the second sentence,= =20 >> > or is that understood from context? If it does need marked, to I do i= t=20 >> > at the beginning or the end of the sentence, or would that be a matter= =20 >> > of preference?=20 >> >> It is proper. It's also totally fine to have something after {.i} that= =20 >> isn't a complete sentence, like a sumti for instance. Context takes care= =20 >> of who said it, just like in English.=20 >> >> Another very common method of doing split quotes that is used in large= =20 >> works such as Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz is to use {sei}= =20 >> like so:=20 >> >> .i =C2=ABlu doi la cmalu cityge'u =E2=80=94sei la cipni cu cusku=E2=80= =94 do pu cirko lo do=20 >> bolci li'u=C2=BB=20 >> >> (The em dashes are used to make the inserted material more readily=20 >> discernible. This is optional.)=20 >> >> With this method the whole quote remains in one piece.=20 >> >> I had actually seen that in one of the stories that I copied and thought= ,=20 > "I have to remember this." Actually using it, it should stay in my head= =20 > better. > =20 > >> > One last question from la selpa'i post. He used the word zvajuko, (= =20 >> > ... te'a zvajuko lo keldai ) but I not quite sure what it means. I=20 >> know=20 >> > that zva is a rafsi form of zvati, but I haven't been able to figure= =20 >> out=20 >> > quite what juko would refer to.=20 >> >> It's the zi'evla version of {zvajuncri}. See=20 >> >> http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/addvalsi.html?valsi=3Dzvajuko=20 >> =20 >> >> As mentioned earlier, I understand {cirko}'s x2 to always be a property= =20 >> abstraction, and saying {cirko lo keldai} is either non-sense or=20 >> implicit sumti-raising (or sloppy speech). In Lojban, losing a toy is=20 >> not the same thing as losing one's patience. English conflates these=20 >> different senses of "lose" into a single word, but Lojban tries to avoid= =20 >> such conflations. Using {cirko} for both senses (and all the other=20 >> senses of "lose") would only import the polysemy of English into Lojban.= =20 >> Therefore I use {zvajuko} (a contraction from "ZVAti dJUno cirKO") for= =20 >> the sense of "losing the property of knowing where something is".=20 >> >> This is part of what I like about Lojban. I'm just not used to thinking= =20 > in this manner. That and a lack of vocabulary. So, I shouldn't be using= =20 > cirko in this translation (as everything that he loses is a tangible=20 > object), and should use zvajuncri instead. > > I think that this separation of physical/non-physical may be a harder=20 > concept to beat into my head than some others. That and using an=20 > abstract. I think that might be my bigger hangup as it is not something= =20 > that I generally consider in English. > > Thank you again for your time, knowledge and patience. I really=20 > appreciate it. > > =20 > >> mi'e la selpa'i mu'o=20 >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_164_1115101577.1440781919238 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Continuing on, I find that I'm not too sure about= identifying amounts.=C2=A0 I'm also not quite sure what to do with &qu= ot;them" in the second sentence.=C2=A0 It seems like it falls into con= text again.

Bird says
You have lost your= toys.=C2=A0 You have lost them all.
.i do zvajuncri lo do keldai .i do zvajuncri ro d= a

And I had also forgotten the title of= the book, or I would have remembered that not everything is tangible that = he looses.=C2=A0 I am assuming that this is where I would need cirko and not zvajuncri.=C2=A0 But then= again, they treat it as a physical thing in the book.=C2=A0 The Mouse find= s it later in the park, and is using it.

"Oh = Puppy," says Bird. "You have lost your bark!"
lu .ue doi la cityge'= u - sei la cipni cu cusku - do cirko lo ka do gercmo li'u

That is it for my questions today.=C2=A0 I'm try= ing to keep it to just a few questions at a time so that I don't get to= o far ahead of myself.=C2=A0 It also gives me time to sit and ponder before= I ask something silly.

Thanks in advance for any = help given.=C2=A0 I really do appreciate it.

On We= dnesday, August 26, 2015 at 1:45:43 PM UTC-4, la .xabltos. wrote:


On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 12:21:22 = PM UTC-4, selpa'i wrote:
la .xabyltos. cu c= usku di'e
> Thank you again. =C2=A0I'm really beginning to think that this= will be much
> more rewarding than just copying some of the shorter texts and sor= ting
> through it. =C2=A0This will really make me think about what I want= to say and
> how I need to say it.

=C2=A0From experience I know that few things will expose one's gaps= quicker=20
than trying to translate something challenging into Lojban. I strongly= =20
recommend it.

> My next question is simple, I believe, and touches upon something = said
> previously.
>
> He has lost his ball.
> .i ko'a pu cirko lo ko'a bolci
>
> or
>
> .i ko'a pu cirko lo bolci
>
> While talking about "his bark" yesterday, it was noted t= hat ke'a was not
> really needed due to context. =C2=A0Is it the same here? =C2=A0Wou= ld I need ko'a
> when talking about "his" ball?

Well, with the {ko'a} it means "his ball", and without it= it means=20
"ball". You can leave it out when it's obvious, but it ma= y often not be.

But maybe your questions arises from the whole {cirko} issue, where in= =20
my translation the {ke'a} disappeared due to {cirko lo ka gercmo}. = I'll=20
talk about this more below.

> Another question deals with a ... I guess you would call it a spli= t
> quote (and actually the same question from above).
>
> "Little Puppy," said Bird. =C2=A0"You have lost you= r ball."
>
> .i lu doi la cmalu cityge'u li'u se cusku la cipni .i lu d= o pu cirko lo
> do bolci li'u
>
> Is this proper? =C2=A0Do I have to mark Bird as saying the second = sentence,
> or is that understood from context? =C2=A0If it does need marked, = to I do it
> at the beginning or the end of the sentence, or would that be a ma= tter
> of preference?

It is proper. It's also totally fine to have something after {.i} t= hat=20
isn't a complete sentence, like a sumti for instance. Context takes= care=20
of who said it, just like in English.

Another very common method of doing split quotes that is used in large= =20
works such as Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz is to use {sei}= =20
like so:

.i =C2=ABlu doi la cmalu cityge'u =E2=80=94sei la cipni cu cusku=E2= =80=94 do pu cirko lo do=20
bolci li'u=C2=BB

(The em dashes are used to make the inserted material more readily=20
discernible. This is optional.)

With this method the whole quote remains in one piece.

I had actually seen that in one of the stories that I= copied and thought, "I have to remember this."=C2=A0 Actually us= ing it, it should stay in my head better.
=C2=A0
> One last question from =C2=A0la selpa'i post. = =C2=A0He used the word zvajuko, (
> ... te'a zvajuko lo keldai ) but I not quite sure what it mean= s. =C2=A0I know
> that zva is a rafsi form of zvati, but I haven't been able to = figure out
> quite what juko would refer to.

It's the zi'evla version of {zvajuncri}. See

http://jbovlas= te.lojban.org/dict/addvalsi.html?valsi=3Dzvajuko

As mentioned earlier, I understand {cirko}'s x2 to always be a prop= erty=20
abstraction, and saying {cirko lo keldai} is either non-sense or=20
implicit sumti-raising (or sloppy speech). In Lojban, losing a toy is= =20
not the same thing as losing one's patience. English conflates thes= e=20
different senses of "lose" into a single word, but Lojban tri= es to avoid=20
such conflations. Using {cirko} for both senses (and all the other=20
senses of "lose") would only import the polysemy of English i= nto Lojban.=20
Therefore I use {zvajuko} (a contraction from "ZVAti dJUno cirKO&q= uot;) for=20
the sense of "losing the property of knowing where something is&qu= ot;.

This is part of what I like about Lojban.=C2=A0 I'= ;m just not used to thinking in this manner.=C2=A0 That and a lack of vocab= ulary.=C2=A0 So, I shouldn't be using cirko in this translation (as eve= rything that he loses is a tangible object), and should use zvajuncri inste= ad.

I think that this separation of physical/non-p= hysical may=C2=A0be a harder concept to beat into my head than some others.= =C2=A0 That and using an abstract.=C2=A0 I think that might be my bigger ha= ngup as it is not something that I generally consider in English.

Thank you again for your time, knowledge and patience.=C2= =A0 I really appreciate it.

=C2=A0
mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

--
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