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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Trying my first translation ... a few questions.
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From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
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Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 11:53:40 +0200
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la .xabyltos. cu cusku di'e
> Continuing on, I find that I'm not too sure about identifying amounts.
> I'm also not quite sure what to do with "them" in the second sentence.
> It seems like it falls into context again.
>
> Bird says
> You have lost your toys.  You have lost them all.
> .i do zvajuncri lo do keldai .i do zvajuncri ro da

It can be tricky to back-reference in Lojban sometimes, but here you can 
use {ri} without problems. {ri} picks up the previous sumti (skipping 
certain pronouns), so in

    do zvajuncri lo do keldai .i do zvajuncri ri
    "You lost your toys. You lost them."

the {ri} would refer to {lo do keldai}.

Now to say "each" of something, you only have to prepend {ro} to it:

    do zvajuncri ro ri
    "You lost each of them."

If you are curious, {ro <sumti>} is equivalent to {ro da poi ke'a menre 
<sumti>} ("each thing among the referents of <sumti>"). The same applies 
to any other number you put before a sumti.

> And I had also forgotten the title of the book, or I would have
> remembered that not everything is tangible that he looses.  I am
> assuming that this is where I would need cirko and not zvajuncri.  But
> then again, they treat it as a physical thing in the book.  The Mouse
> finds it later in the park, and is using it.
>
> "Oh Puppy," says Bird. "You have lost your bark!"
> lu .ue doi la cityge'u - sei la cipni cu cusku - do cirko lo ka do
> gercmo li'u

{do cirko lo ka ce'u gercmo}. Every {ka}-abstraction contains at least 
one {ce'u}, and {cirko} knows that when it sees a property in its x2, it 
will "insert" its x1 into the {ce'u}-slot of the property. {ce'u} is a 
*bit* like {ke'a}; you don't say {do noi do melbi} but {do noi *ke'a* 
melbi}. If you're confused, it might be good to seek out some more 
information about {ka}-abstractions.

As for having to distinguish {cirko} and {zvajuncri} unlike the source 
text, you have the option of always using {cirko} and adding a {tu'a} in 
the case of non-properties. I don't know if you have come across {tu'a} 
yet. {tu'a <sumti>} is short for {lo su'u <sumti> co'e}, that is "an 
unspecified abstraction involving <sumti>".

This means you can say {cirko tu'a lo bolci} when you mean {cirko lo ka 
djuno lo du'u lo bolci cu zvati ma kau}, because the latter is an 
abstraction involving {lo bolci}.

mi'e la selpa'i mu'o

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