Received: from mail-ob0-f188.google.com ([209.85.214.188]:32886) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWnSF-00038q-1q for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 08:26:43 -0700 Received: by obbbh8 with SMTP id bh8sf884367obb.0 for ; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 08:26:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=WpTEbYI/IZU7RbF/SACkS17tnpZJkS3qCJ6l8KADD6M=; b=TXw5WBXsHXgdXoueI7Q8Mohxexn+FYKx6izJeO0RSrOu7kPnFCPTAhDVEMLewiKvNz iIYFT3vFWkRDUFUOXKhGLRQe1UTDOrl6cGoAh/T+9tdfb5Cnit4y7E6CwN8/kODm1RyG GvwXBcRUy97PNISx1nXV2iGBPjrWWcBh7FEi21W4gBpe/RP8fRQPjJhHKMfLtrjJlDSq 9oSQzahWEyDgHfkWlvt6BkEKlQg+gZA7ZdWgUSZiBM9IbNWzAJIqti3CQ+8O45as4xoE +QHB+Lw47+e39wLBtBKWvZ+b5SBLmnGhVTBbTxjL9HjJK2g8K1CzF6dMuNbiiFlhIg8p kT/w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=WpTEbYI/IZU7RbF/SACkS17tnpZJkS3qCJ6l8KADD6M=; b=o6nViuuutl2o75qkcxV98L/4HDuWsTHdkKpaM0r0cNT1ssVJQChOm7Kfowo6pjRdjr o/2KjFsyHeo07uJUq8sf0VyOqiVzhW+cV7UZuFCSPpmUlW3SqCSKVLnIdBQUKJqYfQB4 LHv6SVz3n66Wjwto9dkftXnRfS9C+pvs7anJjvjNyfgXoDCCdH/B81wNOTiEkp/rd3Bv 00GTfvAZKVGD0Kw2PJKO2JCKd82dFgdb4wTcjOyAemxtNudPQ31XN6Jch2DHLS1rQMde bzpfzmiKU4U1P0O4YmRHig670tmcsVxAtTacDudUdL4N0KG0DEHn2GoBV1Krb2s5Uktz C4qA== X-Received: by 10.182.81.9 with SMTP id v9mr450103obx.40.1441121189256; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 08:26:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.213.36 with SMTP id np4ls4422303obc.49.gmail; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 08:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.213.164 with SMTP id nt4mr444961obc.39.1441121187645; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 08:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 08:26:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "la .xabltos." To: Lojban Beginners Message-Id: <9f0a9b07-cdb1-460d-a679-ed9a827d1fc0@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <76a5b632-69f7-42af-9f57-c66a889b8044@googlegroups.com> <55DDE77F.8010804@gmx.de> <80479aa0-ebcc-4105-9a9d-0850992de1c9@googlegroups.com> <054ae82a-9842-47bb-8fab-48f57d4684c0@googlegroups.com> <55E18124.6020108@gmx.de> <824e08b0-06c1-4003-8192-c092db492410@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Trying my first translation ... a few questions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_103_938660524.1441121187134" X-Original-Sender: hobbletoe@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 12513 ------=_Part_103_938660524.1441121187134 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_104_1096390441.1441121187135" ------=_Part_104_1096390441.1441121187135 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Just when I think I am starting to get it ... I'm really REALLY going to have to look into abstractions again, and especially tu'a. Not that it is an answer to everything, but clearly something that I don't fully understand. That and go back through connectives again. I hadn't thought of "go and look for" as a single grammatical construct. Hmm. At least I got sisku right. It makes sense to me to drop klama as you say as, now that I have a better understanding. Well, back to the books. I am daunted, but not deterred. I just need to do more studying and to practice more.. Thank you sir, for your help. I appreciate it. On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 10:34:48 AM UTC-4, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Well, not quite. The first problem here is that "je" combines the klama > (which you typoed, btw) and sisku into a single entity, x1 is a > go-and-seeker of/goes-and-seeks x2. While x2 for compound tanru like > that are not actually defined, it often is taken to mean that the x2 should > be able to fit into the x2 of both parts (the klama and the sisku). Which > implies that he is a goer-to and seeker-of ballness... Which is a bit > messy. "gi'e" is cleaner here: > ma'a klama gi'e sisku tu'a lo ko'a gercmo . This puts the "tu'a lo ko'a > gercmo" associated only with the sisku, not the klama. But in fact, I > would drop the "klama gi'e" entirely. Because the English "go and" is kind > of just a grammatical fillip. It doesn't really mean to go someplace in > particular. It just emphasizes a course of action. > > Now, you will also notice I used "tu'a lo ko'a gercmo" instead of "lo > ka ko'a gercmo". There is two reasons I did this. First, I do prefer to > use tu'a X when seraching for an object (as it says in jbovlaste). > Although this may have changed in modern day usage. I'm a dinosaur. And > secondly, because "lo ka ko'a gercmo" does not mean " the property of his > bark", but in fact means "the property of him being a barker" (because the > ko'a is now part of the bridi "ko'a gercmo" (he barks), not a possessive > like it was before, without the ka. > > --gejyspa > > > On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 10:19 AM, la .xabltos. > wrote: > >> So we are currently gathering friends to find Puppy's toys. My question >> today concerns the connective that I need to use with selbri. I think >> that I need je in this case, but am not positive. >> >> "Oh, Duck," says Frog. Let's go and look for Puppy's bark." >> .i lu doi datka - sei la pipybafli cu cusku - ma'a kalama je sisku lo ka >> ko'a gercmo li'u >> >> I used ma'a since contextually, we have Puppy, Bird, Frog, and Duck, and >> not just Frog and Duck (mi'o). >> >> My only other concern was "look for". Initially, I thought that it would >> be viska, but then I stopped and thought about it some. About what they >> were really trying to accomplish. And I came up with sisku, and they >> are searching for something, not necessarily looking at it. >> >> I hope that I actually got this part right. And I really am learning so >> much more translating to Lojban than from it. You really need to think >> about what is really trying to be said instead of engrained euphemisms >> (look for), and what part of grammar something really is. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-b...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_104_1096390441.1441121187135 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just when I think I am starting to get it ...

I'm really REALLY going to have to look into abstract= ions again, and especially tu'a.=C2=A0 Not that it is an answer to everything, but cl= early something that I don't fully understand.=C2=A0 That and go back t= hrough connectives again.

I hadn't thought of= "go and look for" as a single grammatical construct. Hmm.=C2=A0 = At least I got sisku<= /font> right.=C2=A0 It makes sense to me to drop klama as you say as, now that I have a b= etter understanding.

Well, back to the books.=C2= =A0 I am daunted, but not deterred.=C2=A0 I just need to do more studying a= nd to practice more..

Thank you sir, for your help= .=C2=A0 I appreciate it.

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 10:34:48 A= M UTC-4, Michael Turniansky wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Well, not quite. The first problem here is that &qu= ot;je" combines the klama (which you typoed, btw) and sisku into a sin= gle entity, x1 is a go-and-seeker of/goes-and-seeks x2. =C2=A0 While x2 =C2= =A0for compound tanru like that are not actually defined, it often is taken= to mean that the x2 should be able to fit into the x2 of both parts (the k= lama and the sisku).=C2=A0 Which implies that he is a goer-to and seeker-of= ballness...=C2=A0 Which is a bit messy. "gi'e" is cleaner he= re:
ma'a klama gi'e sisku tu'a lo ko'a gercmo .=C2=A0 T= his puts the "tu'a lo ko'a gercmo" associated only with t= he sisku, not the klama.=C2=A0 But in fact, I would drop the "klama gi= 'e" entirely.=C2=A0 Because the English "go and" is kind= of just a grammatical fillip.=C2=A0 It doesn't really mean to go somep= lace in particular.=C2=A0 It just emphasizes a course of action. =C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now, you will also notice I used "t= u'a lo ko'a gercmo" instead of "lo ka ko'a gercmo&quo= t;.=C2=A0 There is two reasons I did this.=C2=A0 First, I do prefer to use = tu'a X when seraching for an object (as it says in jbovlaste).=C2=A0 Al= though this may have changed in modern day usage. I'm a dinosaur.=C2=A0= And secondly, because "lo ka ko'a gercmo" does not mean &quo= t; the property of his =C2=A0bark", but in fact means "the proper= ty of him being a barker" (because the ko'a is now part of the bri= di "ko'a gercmo" (he barks), not a possessive like it was bef= ore, without the ka.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 10:19 AM, la .xabltos. = <h= obb...@gmail.com> wrote:
So we are currently gathering friends to find Puppy's= toys.=C2=A0 My question today concerns the connective that I need to use w= ith selbri.=C2= =A0 I think that I need je in this case, but am not positive.

&q= uot;Oh, Duck," says Frog. Let's go and look for Puppy's bark.&= quot;
.i lu= doi datka - sei la pipybafli cu cusku - ma'a kalama je sisku lo=C2=A0k= a ko'a gercmo li'u

I used ma'a since contextually, we have Puppy, Bird, F= rog, and Duck, and not just Frog and Duck (mi'o).

<= div>My only other concern=C2=A0was "look for".=C2=A0 Initially, I= thought that it would be viska, but then I stopped and thought about it some.=C2=A0 Abou= t what they were really trying to accomplish.=C2=A0 And I came up with sisku, and they ar= e searching for something, not necessarily looking at it.

I hope that I actually got this part right.=C2=A0 And I really am l= earning so much more translating to Lojban than from it.=C2=A0 You really n= eed to think about what is really trying to be said instead of engrained eu= phemisms (look for), and what part of=C2=A0grammar something=C2=A0really is= .
=C2=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginne...@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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