Received: from mail-ig0-f192.google.com ([209.85.213.192]:33330) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZxrZq-0004WB-55 for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 23:18:22 -0800 Received: by igvi2 with SMTP id i2sf12950925igv.0 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 23:18:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=/lYESr2mdsVuAjt1zacQpTxTDUpSplWXF7BXdlb6Kq4=; b=CxRnZKpMRTKAr883TFDoeMdjyaRC6ioO9F7I5F8iXsZMso3UMKittwifCu+ReOsYlx sOtvfU+vokn1I9GU6IyNCt7HV46VJlSSym2XLTvFj3CpB6eDpG033C5fsSluI3sUuH22 O4eo9wkUnVoLoARTQ67PbHEkXNGDnpqq5gTI58eBRFmMC5BOCcwMpTPURPl9ngF0Vd4h rpD6qxstjJyhJe6esJrqqJm8s51B5YhbSxIVuuUoBmTZ774LuaHpCrXMgk/8nyIPv1a7 jbjDoqJzgTLrBszMgv58Tol4aEKFtcJS9b4xtrjFeVFWJx0pD+LSgku9CLzLG094TQor SDTA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :content-type:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=/lYESr2mdsVuAjt1zacQpTxTDUpSplWXF7BXdlb6Kq4=; b=GB7w/psEsbOvM8AukSovrNn+Ol0JBH5hrvphIu9QMX1jkedWEQai57CZcXeQK387Na k+uMFdGSODAg7I2+1B9t7V+r0dHD4W6iUxbHWxbQBkNUezs2156OTd8RCSb/It+NsFoA +rQg48yqZ6Z7Q/mtq1ZJCZnbfx2F1Z168Ce8SQW74y+rfOuwaD1cBSSrO5jHi/VnQqko ael6REsi57Ptu6p17nzjepaRhoiLpnn45+vBNauiik/sKIuUUxreeOSj/8uF8SNwmYpx a5RsXA+45cYbQ/KvWU7Rs4esOcQ9Vh/W9gZTMJ9LuXQtQhs0R7og+95ArvEkKFHO+2sg dgnA== X-Received: by 10.182.191.97 with SMTP id gx1mr54572obc.11.1447571892387; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 23:18:12 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.87.136 with SMTP id ay8ls1022773obb.56.gmail; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 23:18:11 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.182.104.103 with SMTP id gd7mr273095obb.19.1447571891398; Sat, 14 Nov 2015 23:18:11 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 23:18:10 -0800 (PST) From: guskant To: Lojban Beginners Message-Id: <8187ef42-0cd3-42ff-bd7d-651b3aedd395@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Translations of quotes for my next piece MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_227_945253135.1447571890991" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 8260 ------=_Part_227_945253135.1447571890991 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_228_1556485282.1447571890992" ------=_Part_228_1556485282.1447571890992 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le dimanche 15 novembre 2015 06:32:35 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : > > > > 2015-11-15 0:21 GMT+03:00 guskant >: > >> >> 2015-11-14 13:54 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna: >> > >> > 2015-11-14 16:15 GMT+03:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson: >> >> >> >> 4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) =E2=80=9CVerily! Allah= is with >> >> those who do good deeds.=E2=80=9D >> > >> > >> > wa-inna l-laha lama=CA=BFa l-mu=E1=B8=A5'sin=C4=ABna >> > >> > "And indeed, Allah surely with good-doers." >> > >> > Given that Lojban can elide selbri we get an even more doubtful >> > approximation: >> > >> > ije je'u la alax ba'e bu'u lo za'u zukte be lo zabna >> > >> >> This is a typical {malxelfanva} containing two problems. >> >> 1. That part of the original arabic text is in accusative case, and I=20 >> interpret it as an expression of the circumstantial accusative. >> > > Given that accusative doesn't exist in Lojban ... > =20 > Therefore you should think of interpreting the meaning in order to=20 translate. =20 > When translating it into Lojban, we could: >> 1-1. translate the whole statement including the previous part of the=20 >> text, or, >> 1-2. supplement the part with a selbri so that the readers find that the= =20 >> part represents the circumstances. >> >> 2. the form "I JA fragment" is not only officially ungrammatical >> > > I used the official YACC parser for that fragment. The only complaint=20 > from the parser is the cmevla {alax} which is now acceptable due to=20 > officializing of dotside. > > Other than that that fragment is grammatical. > OK, I see what you did. The official YACC permits {I JA fragment} only at= =20 the very beginning of the whole text, while it does not permit {text I JA= =20 fragment}. It is a bizarre property of the official parser that I was not= =20 aware of. I should correct my statement: "this is officially grammatical,= =20 but anti-logical from a point of view of logical operation." =20 > > but also anti-logical from a point of view of logical operation. >> > > You may add {co'e} as the selbri. Why should we add any selbri that don't= =20 > exist in the original? > > Then you must say {co'e}. I have already written the reason for adding a=20 selbri in 1-2. mu'o mi'e la guskant --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_228_1556485282.1447571890992 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Le dimanche 15 novembre 2015 06:32:35 UTC, la gleki a =C3=A9crit=C2= =A0:

=
2015-11-15 0:21 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:

2015-11-14 13:54 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arx= okuna:
>
> 2015-11-14 16:15 GMT+03:00 Erik = Natanael Gustafsson:
>>
>> 4. Koranen: The = Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) =E2=80=9CVerily! Allah is with
>= ;> those who do good deeds.=E2=80=9D
>
>
=
> wa-inna l-laha lama=CA=BFa l-mu=E1=B8=A5'sin=C4= =ABna
>
> "And indeed, Allah surely with goo= d-doers."
>
> Given that Lojban can elide se= lbri we get an even more doubtful
> approximation:
&= gt;
> ije je'u la alax ba'e bu'u lo za'u zukte= be lo zabna
>

This is a typic= al {malxelfanva} containing two problems.

1. That = part of the original arabic text is in accusative case, and I interpret it = as an expression of the circumstantial accusative.
=

Given that accusative doesn't exist in Lojban ...
=C2=A0

The= refore you should think of interpreting the meaning in order to translate.<= br>

=C2=A0
When translating it into Lojban, we = could:
1-1. translate the whole statement including the previous = part of the text, or,
1-2. supplement the part with a selbri so t= hat the readers find that the part represents the circumstances.
=
2. the form "I JA fragment" is not only officially= ungrammatical

I used the offic= ial YACC parser =C2=A0for that fragment. The only complaint from the parser= is the cmevla {alax} which is now acceptable due to officializing of dotsi= de.

Other than that that fragment is grammatical.<= /div>


OK, I see what you did. The official YACC permits {I JA fragment} only at = the very beginning of the whole text, while it does not permit {text I JA f= ragment}. It is a bizarre property of the official parser that I was not aw= are of. I should correct my statement: "this is officially grammatical= , but anti-logical from a point of view of logical operation."

=C2=A0

but also anti-logical from= a point of view of logical operation.

You may add {co'e} as the selbri. Why should we add any selbri = that don't exist in the original?



Then you must say {co= 'e}. I have already written the reason for adding a selbri in 1-2.

=C2=A0mu'o mi'e la guskant

--
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