Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 09:48:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Erik Natanael Gustafsson <eriknatanaelgustafsson@gmail.com>
To: Lojban Beginners <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Translations of quotes for my next piece
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Okay, I think I get it. Thanks for the detailed explanation!

co'o mi'e la natnainiel

On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 5:21:30 PM UTC+1, guskant wrote:
>
>
>
> Le dimanche 15 novembre 2015 11:41:38 UTC, Erik Natanael Gustafsson a=20
> =C3=A9crit :
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 10:21:50 PM UTC+1, guskant wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:
>>> > 3. Konfucius: "Wherever you go, go with all your heart."
>>> > 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka'ai lo mulno cnize'i po'e do
>>>
>>> What is the original text? If it is an English translation of "=E6=97=
=A2=E6=9D=A5=E4=B9=8B=E5=88=99=E5=AE=89=E4=B9=8B j=C3=AC=20
>>> l=C3=A1i zh=C4=AB z=C3=A9 =C4=81n zh=C4=AB", you cite a very bad transl=
ation. I would translate the=20
>>> original text into Lojban as follows:
>>>
>>> (.i) ba'o klama ti .i na ja ko'oi panpi ti
>>>
>>> where the experimental cmavo {ko'oi} of UI is intended to span over the=
=20
>>> sentence connective {i na ja}.
>>>
>>> Okay, I unfortunately don't know any Chinese so I cannot comment on the=
=20
>> accuracy of the translation. I can't wrap my head around your Lojban=20
>> translation either though, specifically the "na ja ko'oi" part and what=
=20
>> happens to the x1 of both selbri, that is who does the going and being a=
t=20
>> peace? Could you give me an explanation or an English translation?
>>
>>
> In the original context, x1 of {klama} and {panpi} are people from the=20
> enemy nation. When the statement is used as an aphorism, x1 may be the=20
> speaker or the listener, spoken with hope, suggestion, or understanding o=
n=20
> a fact, depending on the context.=20
>
> The original context is as follows.
> King Ji of State Lu planned to attack State Zhuan Yu.
> The ministers Ran You and Ji Lu came to consult Confucius, and said that=
=20
> they didn't want but the king wanted to attack Zhuan Yu. Confucius said t=
he=20
> ministers must make efforts to execute their own missions; if they could=
=20
> not execute, they should resign. The ministers said that Zhuan Yu was a=
=20
> strong state and very close to one of the towns of State Lu; if they were=
=20
> not going to attack Zhuan Yu soon, it would bring trouble to State Lu in=
=20
> the future. Confucius said that the king would hate that the ministers=20
> would try to change the king's plan by creating a plausible reason.=20
> Confucius suggested to the ministers as follows:
> "[...] If people are equal in economy, they don't feel poverty. If they=
=20
> are friendly to each other, they don't feel depopulation. If they are=20
> stable, they don't feel danger of the state. Therefore, if the distant=20
> people don't obey your state, politely invite them to your state. having=
=20
> them come, that is making them peaceful. You are currently ministers of t=
he=20
> king; the distant people don't obey, and you cannot even invite them; the=
=20
> state people are split, you cannot save them, and you are even trying to=
=20
> move weapons in the state. I am afraid that the sorrow of King Ji might b=
e=20
> not in Zhuan Yu but in his own state."
>
> The part "having them come, that is making them peaceful" corresponds=20
> indeed to the part=20
> (.i) ba'o klama ti .i na ja ko'oi panpi ti .
> If I translate the part word by word, the Lojban translation will be:
>
> j=C3=AC
> [ba'o]
>
> l=C3=A1i
> [gau klama ti]
>
> zh=C4=AB
> [fa ra]
>
> z=C3=A9
> [i na ja]
>
> =C4=81n
> [gau panpi]
>
> zh=C4=AB
> [fa ra] .
>
> However, when the previous part is not translated, {ra} is meaningless. I=
n=20
> aphoristic use, x1 of the two selbri could vary according to the context,=
=20
> and it is better omitting it. Thinking of x1 and x2 of {panpi} being=20
> reciprocal, I made x2 of {panpi} explicit. As a result, the apparent form=
=20
> of the text became similar to the original text. {ko'oi} is not necessary=
=20
> in the original context, but may work better in aphoristic use.
>
> mu'o mi'e la guskant
> =20
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Okay, I think I get it. Thanks for the detailed explanatio=
n!<br><br>co&#39;o mi&#39;e la natnainiel<br><br>On Sunday, November 15, 20=
15 at 5:21:30 PM UTC+1, guskant wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
: 1ex;"><br><br>Le dimanche 15 novembre 2015 11:41:38 UTC, Erik Natanael Gu=
stafsson a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><br><br>On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 10:21:50 PM UTC+1, gusk=
ant wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0=
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br=
></div><div>2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:</div><div>=
&gt; 3. Konfucius: &quot;Wherever you go, go with all your heart.&quot;</di=
v><div>&gt; 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka&#39;ai lo mulno cnize&#39;i po&#39;e d=
o</div><div><br></div><div>What is the original text? If it is an English t=
ranslation of &quot;=E6=97=A2=E6=9D=A5=E4=B9=8B=E5=88=99=E5=AE=89=E4=B9=8B =
j=C3=AC l=C3=A1i zh=C4=AB z=C3=A9 =C4=81n zh=C4=AB&quot;, you cite a very b=
ad translation. I would translate the original text into Lojban as follows:=
</div><div><br></div><div>(.i) ba&#39;o klama ti .i na ja ko&#39;oi panpi t=
i</div><div><br></div><div>where the experimental cmavo {ko&#39;oi} of UI i=
s intended to span over the sentence connective {i na ja}.</div><div><br></=
div></div></blockquote><div>Okay, I unfortunately don&#39;t know any Chines=
e so I cannot comment on the accuracy of the translation. I can&#39;t wrap =
my head around your Lojban translation either though, specifically the &quo=
t;na ja ko&#39;oi&quot; part and what happens to the x1 of both selbri, tha=
t is who does the going and being at peace? Could you give me an explanatio=
n or an English translation?<br><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>In the original context, x1 of {klama} and {panpi} are people from th=
e enemy nation. When the statement is used as an aphorism, x1 may be the sp=
eaker or the listener, spoken with hope, suggestion, or understanding on a =
fact, depending on the context.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The original=
 context is as follows.</div><div>King Ji of State Lu planned to attack Sta=
te Zhuan Yu.</div><div>The ministers Ran You and Ji Lu came to consult Conf=
ucius, and said that they didn&#39;t want but the king wanted to attack Zhu=
an Yu. Confucius said the ministers must make efforts to execute their own =
missions; if they could not execute, they should resign. The ministers said=
 that Zhuan Yu was a strong state and very close to one of the towns of Sta=
te Lu; if they were not going to attack Zhuan Yu soon, it would bring troub=
le to State Lu in the future. Confucius said that the king would hate that =
the ministers would try to change the king&#39;s plan by creating a plausib=
le reason. Confucius suggested to the ministers as follows:</div><div>&quot=
;[...] If people are equal in economy, they don&#39;t feel poverty. If they=
 are friendly to each other, they don&#39;t feel depopulation. If they are =
stable, they don&#39;t feel danger of the state. Therefore, if the distant =
people don&#39;t obey your state, politely invite them to your state. havin=
g them come, that is making them peaceful. You are currently ministers of t=
he king; the distant people don&#39;t obey, and you cannot even invite them=
; the state people are split, you cannot save them, and you are even trying=
 to move weapons in the state. I am afraid that the sorrow of King Ji might=
 be not in Zhuan Yu but in his own state.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>Th=
e part &quot;having them come, that is making them peaceful&quot; correspon=
ds indeed to the part=C2=A0</div><div>(.i) ba&#39;o klama ti .i na ja ko=
9;oi panpi ti .</div><div>If I translate the part word by word, the Lojban =
translation will be:</div><div><div><div><br></div><div>j=C3=AC</div><div>[=
ba&#39;o]</div><div><br></div><div>l=C3=A1i</div><div>[gau klama ti]</div><=
div><br></div><div>zh=C4=AB</div><div>[fa ra]</div><div><br></div><div>z=C3=
=A9</div><div>[i na ja]</div><div><br></div><div>=C4=81n</div><div>[gau pan=
pi]</div><div><br></div><div>zh=C4=AB</div><div>[fa ra] .</div></div></div>=
<div><br></div><div>However, when the previous part is not translated, {ra}=
 is meaningless. In aphoristic use, x1 of the two selbri could vary accordi=
ng to the context, and it is better omitting it. Thinking of x1 and x2 of {=
panpi} being reciprocal, I made x2 of {panpi} explicit. As a result, the ap=
parent form of the text became similar to the original text. {ko&#39;oi} is=
 not necessary in the original context, but may work better in aphoristic u=
se.</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la guskant</div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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