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Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] A question on how causals in Lojban work in a sentence
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From: Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 14:34:42 +0200
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On 27/06/2016 04:34, ozone.blob@gmail.com wrote:
> Recently I've been looking at some Lojbanic sentences or constructions=20
> or whatever, and came upon one in which I'm not sure how a causal=20
> relationship works, or of the role of "ri'a".
>
> It is as follows:
>
> *ca lo nu mi klama lo zdani vau do pinxe lo tcati ri'a lo nu do taske
>
> *There are three bridi within this: 'mi klama lo zdani', 'do pinxe lo=20
> ladru' and 'do taske'; 'I go home', 'you drink milk' and 'you are=20
> thirsty' respectively.
>
> I understand that ca at the beginning indicates that the=20
> relation/action described in the first bridi occurs before that in the=20
> second, and that ri'a indicaates a causal relationship with some=20
> aspect of the words that precede it being as a result of the final=20
> bridi, however I'm unsure exactly what that is, is it that one of the=20
> things happens before the other or does the causal relationship=20
> involve only thefinal two bridi with the first one added just for=20
> additional information as to when it happened?
>
> Just wondering if anyone could clear that up for me, thanks.
>
> Owen

On 27/06/2016 13:55, ozone.blob@gmail.com wrote:
> Also "ca" here should be "pu".

[pu lo nu mi klama lo zdani vau] do pinxe lo tcati [ri'a lo nu do taske]

In this Lojban sentence, the main bridi is {do pinxe lo tcati} (=3D "You=20
drink tea"), and the sentence contains also two adverbial phrases, the=20
one that begin with  {pu} ("before"), and the one that begin with {ri'a}=20
("caused by").
In Lojban, adverbials and quantifiers have a rightward logical scope, so=20
they apply to the bridi they are in, as well as any other adverbial or=20
quantifier appearing on their **right**, but they are under the logical=20
scope of any adverbial or quantifier appearing on their **left**.=20
Therefore, the relative order of appearance of adverbials matters when=20
interpreting a Lojban sentence containing more than one of those.

In this case, the temporal information {pu lo nu mi klama lo zdani vau}=20
(=3D "before I go home") comes first, so it applies to everything on its=20
right, including the causal information {ri'a lo nu do taske} (=3D=20
"because you are/were thirsty"). The causal information only applies to=20
the main bridi {do pinxe lo tcati}, and it is under the scope of "before=20
I go home".

The whole sentence translates as "Before I go/went home, [you drank tea=20
because you were thirsty]", or "[your drinking tea caused by thirst]=20
occurred before I go/went home".

The importance of the relative order of appearance of adverbials is more=20
obvious in the following examples:

=E2=80=A2 {ki'u lo nu carvi ku  na ku  mi klama lo panka} =3D "Because of r=
ain, I=20
don't go to the park."
=E2=80=A2 {na ku  ki'u lo nu carvi ku  mi klama lo panka} =3D "It is not th=
e case=20
that I go to the park because of rain." (So maybe I go to the park for=20
another reason.)

=E2=80=A2 {mi na ka'e lafti lo tanxe} =3D "I can't lift the box", "It is no=
t the=20
case that I can lift the box".
=E2=80=A2 {mi ka'e na lafti lo tanxe} =3D "It is possible that I do/did/wil=
l not=20
lift the box", "maybe I do/did/will not lift the box".

I hope this helped.

=E2=80=94Ilmen.


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">
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    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 27/06/2016 04:34,
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:ozone.blob@gmail=
.com">ozone.blob@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite=3D"mid:4f1ee314-6e7f-4499-95a8-11ae9fa821a1@googlegroups.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">Recently I've been looking at some Lojbanic
        sentences or constructions or whatever, and came upon one in
        which I'm not sure how a causal relationship works, or of the
        role of "ri'a".<br>
        <br>
        It is as follows:<br>
        <br>
        <b>ca lo nu mi klama lo zdani vau do pinxe lo tcati ri'a lo nu
          do taske<br>
          <br>
        </b>There are three bridi within this: 'mi klama lo zdani', 'do
        pinxe lo ladru' and 'do taske'; 'I go home', 'you drink milk'
        and 'you are thirsty' respectively.<br>
        <br>
        I understand that ca at the beginning indicates that the
        relation/action described in the first bridi occurs before that
        in the second, and that ri'a indicaates a causal relationship
        with some aspect of the words that precede it being as a result
        of the final bridi, however I'm unsure exactly what that is, is
        it that one of the things happens before the other or does the
        causal relationship involve only thefinal two bridi with the
        first one added just for additional information as to when it
        happened?<br>
        <br>
        Just wondering if anyone could clear that up for me, thanks.<br>
        <br>
        Owen<br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 27/06/2016 13:55,
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:ozone.blob@gmail=
.com">ozone.blob@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite=3D"mid:9fba6ea6-4939-422b-9511-dc619e6dee60@googlegroups.com"
      type=3D"cite">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">Also "ca" here should be "pu".<br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    [pu lo nu mi klama lo zdani vau] do pinxe lo tcati [ri'a lo nu do
    taske]<br>
    <br>
    In this Lojban sentence, the main bridi is {do pinxe lo tcati} (=3D
    "You drink tea"), and the sentence contains also two adverbial
    phrases, the one that begin with=C2=A0 {pu} ("before"), and the one tha=
t
    begin with {ri'a} ("caused by").<br>
    In Lojban, adverbials and quantifiers have a rightward logical
    scope, so they apply to the bridi they are in, as well as any other
    adverbial or quantifier appearing on their <b>*right*</b>, but they
    are under the logical scope of any adverbial or quantifier appearing
    on their <b>*left*</b>. Therefore, the relative order of appearance
    of adverbials matters when interpreting a Lojban sentence containing
    more than one of those.<br>
    <br>
    In this case, the temporal information {pu lo nu mi klama lo zdani
    vau} (=3D "before I go home") comes first, so it applies to everything
    on its right, including the causal information {ri'a lo nu do taske}
    (=3D "because you are/were thirsty"). The causal information only
    applies to the main bridi {do pinxe lo tcati}, and it is under the
    scope of "before I go home".<br>
    <br>
    The whole sentence translates as "Before I go/went home, [you drank
    tea because you were thirsty]", or "[your drinking tea caused by
    thirst] occurred before I go/went home".<br>
    <br>
    The importance of the relative order of appearance of adverbials is
    more obvious in the following examples:<br>
    <br>
    =E2=80=A2 {ki'u lo nu carvi ku=C2=A0 na ku=C2=A0 mi klama lo panka} =3D=
 "Because of
    rain, I don't go to the park."<br>
    =E2=80=A2 {na ku=C2=A0 ki'u lo nu carvi ku=C2=A0 mi klama lo panka} =3D=
 "It is not the
    case that I go to the park because of rain." (So maybe I go to the
    park for another reason.)<br>
    <br>
    =E2=80=A2 {mi na ka'e lafti lo tanxe} =3D "I can't lift the box", "It i=
s not
    the case that I can lift the box".<br>
    =E2=80=A2 {mi ka'e na lafti lo tanxe} =3D "It is possible that I do/did=
/will
    not lift the box", "maybe I do/did/will not lift the box".<br>
    <br>
    I hope this helped.<br>
    <br>
    =E2=80=94Ilmen.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
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