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[2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b77si60349wmb.1.2016.08.09.00.28.34 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Aug 2016 00:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a; Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id i5so13652234wmg.0 for ; Tue, 09 Aug 2016 00:28:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.25.206.146 with SMTP id e140mr23562608lfg.138.1470727713630; Tue, 09 Aug 2016 00:28:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.3.203 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Aug 2016 00:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.3.203 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Aug 2016 00:28:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Bruno Panasiewicz Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:28:32 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] djekarni (Diary): le karni fe la timoteios. To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114002f8eeb0d805399e7aa0 X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - Content-Length: 24601 --001a114002f8eeb0d805399e7aa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Aug 9, 2016 8:25 AM, "Timothy Lawrence" < timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote: > > What do you mean by "eats"? I gather you aren't using the word literally. Is there a Lojbanic word for the concept? By 'eating' I mean capturing some words into another word's scope. > > Oh, I read http://lojban.github.io/cll/13/14/index.html further and perhaps pe'u requires a name parameter? > > So, would this be correct? > > pe'u do.i ko dragau mi Yes, it would. You don't even need the =C2=AB.i=C2=BB. > > > The vlasisku fi'i dictionary entry does not make it clear to a non-linguist why pe'u "eats" while e'o does not, so it would be good if that could be clarified in more simple terms. It would also be good to link it to e'o. Examples would also be nice. COI take a selbri, sumti, or cmevla. UI are simple attitudinals. =C2=ABpe'u= =C2=BB is in COI, so it takes a selbri, sumti, or cmevla. =C2=AB.e'o=C2=BB is in UI, = so it's a simple attitudinal. > > > I will probably use filta'a next time: > > .e'o ko dragau mi ki'u le nu mi na filta'a OK. > > > > "=C2=ABlo dei se karni=C2=BB meaning 'the magazine-content related to thi= s sentence'" seems long-winded. Is there not a generic way to refer to "this (entire) text"? I mean "text" as it is used in literary theory, not just only actual text, so it could be a speech, etc.. There's an experimental cmavo for that (=C2=ABdei'ei=C2=BB), but otherwise = you have to resort to =C2=ABlo dei .uenzi=C2=BB or something. > > Could I say this? > > mi ze'u ciska ti =C2=ABze'u=C2=BB has an implication of big longness, e.g. 50 years. I'd say= =C2=ABmi ze'a lo clani ti ciska=C2=BB. > > > > Was there something wrong with the logical implication of ni'i? "Plipe is a grasshopper, thus Plipe eats grass" is what I meant. Then it's OK. > > > In regards to > la plipe cu citka le srasu ni'i la plipe cu pipyjalra > was there a way I could have written it using the equivalent of "it" or "she" as per the English version? I didn't because I wasn't sure how. There are many ways, but the best one is... letters. In a nutshell, if you put letterals, they will serve as a sumti referring to something from context. So, you'd say =C2=ABla plipe=C2=BB, and then just =C2=ABpy.=C2=BB. > > > Thanks very much for your corrections :) You're welcome. =E2=80=94 mi'edo'u > > ________________________________ > From: lojban@googlegroups.com on behalf of Bruno Panasiewicz > Sent: Monday, 8 August 2016 8:04 PM > To: mriste > > Subject: Re: [lojban] djekarni (Diary): le karni fe la timoteios. > > Hi and thanks for writing this! Now I'll do my best to correct what you've written. > > On 8 August 2016 at 11:37, Timothy Lawrence < timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote: >> >> pe'u ko dragau mi ki'u la lojban.na verclibau mi > > So, first of all, =C2=ABpe'u=C2=BB eats the =C2=ABko=C2=BB, giving a sent= ence meaning something like "Please do so that someone corrects me". I recommend that you use =C2=AB.e'o=C2=BB. Then, =C2=ABla .lojban. na verclibau mi=C2=BB, in= order to be contained in =C2=ABki'u=C2=BB, has to be made into a sumti with =C2=ABlo nu= =C2=BB. I also prefer =C2=ABjbebau=C2=BB instead of =C2=ABverclibau=C2=BB. So, the sentenc= e would look like: > > .e'o ko dragau mi ki'u lo nu la .lojban. na jbebau mi > > >> >> >> Corrigez-moi, s'il vous pla=C3=AEt, parce que le fran=C3=A7ias n'est pas= ma langue maternelle. >> >> Please correct any of my language versions or suggest improvements - English is my native language so I hope I got that one right ;) >> >> >> >> fi'i ko spuda > > Again, =C2=ABfi'i=C2=BB eats the =C2=ABko=C2=BB. This time I'd use =C2=AB= .e'e=C2=BB ('encouragement') for this sentence: > > .i .e'e ko spuda > > >> >> Vous =C3=AAtes invit=C3=A9s =C3=A0 r=C3=A9pondre. >> >> You are welcome to respond. >> >> >> >> coi le karni. >> >> i mi'e la timoteios.i mi xabju le sralygu'e. >> >> i ca'o le cabdei mi pu ctigau la plipe.i la plipe. > > Because =C2=ABplipe=C2=BB is not a cmevla, you don't need the '.' after i= t. =C2=ABla plipe=C2=BB is all fine. > If you want to stick to using cmevla, you can say =C2=ABla .plipes.=C2=BB= or =C2=ABla .plip.=C2=BB. > > >> >> cu dalpe'o mi. >> i la plipe.cu citka le srasu ni'i la plipe.cu pipyjalra. > > =C2=ABla plipe cu pipyjalra=C2=BB is a bridi, and =C2=ABni'i=C2=BB can ea= t a sumti. So you need to use =C2=ABlo nu=C2=BB, making it: > > la plipe cu citka le srasu ki'u lo nu la plipe cu pipyjalra > > =C2=ABni'i=C2=BB is a word for logical implication, so the sentence would= mean 'Plipe is a grasshopper, thus Plipe eats grass'. =C2=ABki'u=C2=BB is a bett= er fit here. > > >> >> i mi ze'u ciska dei.i mi ba za'u re'u ciska. > > > The first sentence says you've been writing just *it* for a long time. What about this: > > .i mi ze'u ciska lo dei se karni > > =C2=ABlo dei se karni=C2=BB meaning 'the magazine-content related to this= sentence'. > > >> >> mu'o >> >> >> >> Cher journal, >> >> Je m'appelle Timotheos. J'habite en Australie. >> >> Aujourd'hui, j'ai nourri Plipe. Plipe est mon animal de compagnie. >> Elle mange de l'herbe parce qu'elle est un criquet. >> >> Cela a pris beaucoup de temps =C3=A0 =C3=A9crire. Je vais =C3=A9crire en= core. >> >> >> >> Dear diary, >> >> I am Timotheos. I live in Australia. >> >> Today I fed Plipe. Plipe is my pet. >> >> She eats grass because she is a grasshopper. >> It took me a very long time to write this. I will write again. > > > > I'm really glad you've written this, and thus made my concept a real thing. Don't hesitate to write again (or ask further questions). > > ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: lojban@googlegroups.com on behalf of Bruno Panasiewicz >> Sent: Friday, 3 June 2016 2:19 AM >> To: mriste >> Subject: [lojban] djekarni (Diary) >> >> coi ro do (Hi everyone,) >> >> .i mi jai se kosmu lo nu stidi da do (I'm here to suggest you something) >> .i sa'e stidi lo du'u djekarni fi do (-- that is, to suggest making a diary.) >> .i mi kucli lo nu ca ro djedi ja jeftu ja jeftyxadba lo jbopre cu gubgau lo cinri .a'o fasnu pe lo nei (I'm thinking about having Lojbanists writing interesting, I hope, stories of their own daily/weekly/twice a week.) >> .i ru'i ku lo nu troci cu xamgu (It's always good to try.) >> .i .au lo nintadni cu ji'a pagzu'e (I'd like to see beginners taking part as well.) >> .i da'i ja'e bo dragau (Perhaps we can correct each other then.) >> .i va'o lo nu no se lifri pe do cu cinri zo'u .yyy (In case none of your daily experiences are interesting, er,) >> ma krinu lo nu do za'o zvati la jbogu'e kei .u'i (how come you still are in Lojbanistan? :) ) >> .i mi jijnu lo nu lo nintadni cu .ei ciska lo glico jai se djica ku ji'a (I guess beginners should write what they intended to say as well, in English,) >> te zu'e lo nu frili dragau (in order to make correcting easier.) >> >> .i ta'o ba lo nu rau lisri cu se ciska zo'u jmajygau (By the way, when enough entries are written, we'd collect them.) >> .i ja'e bo barda ke fatci lisri (This makes for a big true story) >> gi'e voi ro da zifre lo ka tcidu ke'a (that anyone can read.) >> .i da'i cinri sai (It'd be very interesting) >> fa lo nu tcidu lo me lo drata moi djekarni fasnu (-- reading someone else's stories from their diary.) >> >> .i do ma jinvi lo sidbo (What do you think about the idea?) >> .i mi se pluka da'i lo nu do spuda fi tu'a lo se jinvi be ba'e do (I'd be glad if you sent me such feedback.) >> co'o ru'e (See you!) >> >> -- mu'o >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a114002f8eeb0d805399e7aa0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Aug 9, 2016 8:25 AM, "Timothy Lawrence" <timothy.lawrence@connec= t.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>
> What do you mean by "eats"? I gather you aren't using th= e word literally. Is there a Lojbanic word for the concept?

By 'eating' I mean capturing some words into another= word's scope.

>
> Oh, I read=C2=A0http://lojban.github.io/cll/13/14/index.html=C2=A0further and=C2=A0p= erhaps pe'u requires a name parameter?
>
> So, would this be correct?
>
> pe'u do.i=C2=A0ko dragau mi

Yes, it would. You don't even need the =C2=AB.i=C2=BB.

>
>
> The vlasisku=C2=A0fi'i=C2=A0dictionary entry=C2=A0does not make it= clear to a non-linguist=C2=A0why=C2=A0pe'u=C2=A0"eats"=C2=A0= while=C2=A0e'o=C2=A0does not, so it would be good if that could be clar= ified in more simple terms.=C2=A0It would also be good to link it to e'= o. Examples would also be nice.

COI take a selbri, sumti, or cmevla. UI are simple attitudin= als. =C2=ABpe'u=C2=BB is in COI, so it takes a selbri, sumti, or cmevla= . =C2=AB.e'o=C2=BB is in UI, so it's a simple attitudinal.

>
>
> I will probably use filta'a=C2=A0next time:
>
> .e'o ko dragau mi ki'u le nu mi na filta'a

OK.

>
>
>
> "=C2=ABlo dei se karni=C2=BB meaning 'the magazine-content re= lated to this sentence'" seems long-winded. Is there not a generic= way to refer to "this (entire)=C2=A0text"? I mean "text&quo= t; as it is used in=C2=A0literary theory, not just only actual=C2=A0text, s= o it could be a=C2=A0speech, etc..

There's an experimental cmavo for that (=C2=ABdei'ei= =C2=BB), but otherwise you have to resort to =C2=ABlo dei .uenzi=C2=BB or s= omething.

>
> Could I say this?
>
> mi ze'u=C2=A0ciska ti

=C2=ABze'u=C2=BB has an implication of big longness, e.g= . 50 years. I'd say =C2=ABmi ze'a lo clani ti ciska=C2=BB.

>
>
>
> Was there something wrong with the logical implication of ni'i? &q= uot;Plipe is a grasshopper, thus Plipe eats grass" is what I meant.

Then it's OK.

>
>
> In regards to=C2=A0
> la plipe cu citka le srasu ni'i la plipe cu pipyjalra
> was there a way I could have written it using the equivalent of=C2=A0&= quot;it" or "she" as per the English version? I didn't b= ecause I wasn't sure how.

There are many ways, but the best one is... letters. In a nu= tshell, if you put letterals, they will serve as a sumti referring to somet= hing from context. So, you'd say =C2=ABla plipe=C2=BB, and then just = =C2=ABpy.=C2=BB.

>
>
> Thanks very much for your corrections :)

You're welcome.

=E2=80=94 mi'edo'u

>
> ________________________________
> From: lojban@googlegroups.c= om <lojban@googlegroups.c= om> on behalf of Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, 8 August 2016 8:04 PM
> To: mriste
>
> Subject: Re: [lojban] djekarni (Diary): le karni fe la timoteios.
> =C2=A0
> Hi and thanks for writing this! Now I'll do my best to correct wha= t you've written.
>
> On 8 August 2016 at 11:37, Timothy Lawrence <timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au>= ; wrote:
>>
>> pe'u ko dragau mi ki'u la loj= ban.na verclibau mi
>
> So, first of all, =C2=ABpe'u=C2=BB eats the =C2=ABko=C2=BB, giving= a sentence meaning something like "Please do so that someone corrects= me". I recommend that you use =C2=AB.e'o=C2=BB. Then, =C2=ABla .l= ojban. na verclibau mi=C2=BB, in order to be contained in =C2=ABki'u=C2= =BB, has to be made into a sumti with =C2=ABlo nu=C2=BB. I also prefer =C2= =ABjbebau=C2=BB instead of =C2=ABverclibau=C2=BB. So, the sentence would lo= ok like:
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .e'o ko dragau mi ki'u lo nu la .lojban. na= jbebau mi
>
> =C2=A0
>>
>>
>> Corrigez-moi, s'il vous pla=C3=AEt, parce que le fran=C3=A7ias= n'est pas ma langue maternelle.
>>
>> Please correct any of my language versions or suggest improvements= - English is my native language so I hope I got that one right ;)
>>
>>
>>
>> fi'i ko spuda
>
> Again, =C2=ABfi'i=C2=BB eats the =C2=ABko=C2=BB. This time I'd= use =C2=AB.e'e=C2=BB ('encouragement') for this sentence:
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .i .e'e ko spuda
>
> =C2=A0
>>
>> Vous =C3=AAtes invit=C3=A9s =C3=A0 r=C3=A9pondre.
>>
>> You are welcome to respond.
>>
>>
>>
>> coi le karni.
>>
>> i mi'e la timoteios.i mi xabju le sralygu'e.
>>
>> i ca'o le cabdei mi pu ctigau la plipe.i la plipe.
>
> Because =C2=ABplipe=C2=BB is not a cmevla, you don't need the '= ;.' after it. =C2=ABla plipe=C2=BB is all fine.
> If you want to stick to using cmevla, you can say =C2=ABla .plipes.=C2= =BB or =C2=ABla .plip.=C2=BB.
>
> =C2=A0
>>
>> cu dalpe'o mi.
>> i la plipe.cu citka le srasu ni= 9;i la plipe.cu pipyjalra.
>
> =C2=ABla plipe cu pipyjalra=C2=BB is a bridi, and =C2=ABni'i=C2=BB= can eat a sumti. So you need to use =C2=ABlo nu=C2=BB, making it:
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 la plipe cu citka le srasu ki'u lo nu la plipe = cu pipyjalra
>
> =C2=ABni'i=C2=BB is a word for logical implication, so the sentenc= e would mean 'Plipe is a grasshopper, thus Plipe eats grass'. =C2= =ABki'u=C2=BB is a better fit here.
>
> =C2=A0
>>
>> i mi ze'u ciska dei.i mi ba za'u re'u ciska.
>
>
> The first sentence says you've been writing just *it* for a long t= ime. What about this:
>
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .i mi ze'u ciska lo dei se karni
>
> =C2=ABlo dei se karni=C2=BB meaning 'the magazine-content related = to this sentence'.
>
> =C2=A0
>>
>> mu'o
>>
>>
>>
>> Cher journal,
>>
>> Je m'appelle Timotheos. J'habite en Australie.
>>
>> Aujourd'hui, j'ai=C2=A0nourri Plipe. Plipe est mon animal = de compagnie.
>> Elle mange de l'herbe parce qu'elle est un criquet.
>>
>> Cela a pris beaucoup de temps =C3=A0 =C3=A9crire. Je vais =C3=A9cr= ire encore.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear diary,
>>
>> I am Timotheos. I live in Australia.
>>
>> Today I fed Plipe. Plipe is my pet.
>>
>> She eats grass because she is a grasshopper.
>> It took me a very long time to write this. I will write again.
>
>
>
> I'm really glad you've written this, and thus made my concept = a real thing. Don't hesitate to write again (or ask further questions).=
>
> ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: lojban@googlegrou= ps.com <lojban@googlegrou= ps.com> on behalf of Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, 3 June 2016 2:19 AM
>> To: mriste
>> Subject: [lojban] djekarni (Diary)
>> =C2=A0
>> coi ro do (Hi everyone,)
>>
>> .i mi jai se kosmu lo nu stidi da do (I'm here to suggest you = something)
>> .i sa'e stidi lo du'u djekarni fi do (-- that is, to sugge= st making a diary.)
>> .i mi kucli lo nu ca ro djedi ja jeftu ja jeftyxadba lo jbopre cu = gubgau lo cinri .a'o fasnu pe lo nei (I'm thinking about having Loj= banists writing interesting, I hope, stories of their own daily/weekly/twic= e a week.)
>> .i ru'i ku lo nu troci cu xamgu (It's always good to try.)=
>> .i .au lo nintadni cu ji'a pagzu'e (I'd like to see be= ginners taking part as well.)
>> .i da'i ja'e bo dragau (Perhaps we can correct each other = then.)
>> .i va'o lo nu no se lifri pe do cu cinri zo'u .yyy (In cas= e none of your daily experiences are interesting, er,)
>> ma krinu lo nu do za'o zvati la jbogu'e kei .u'i (how = come you still are in Lojbanistan? :) )
>> .i mi jijnu lo nu lo nintadni cu .ei ciska lo glico jai se djica k= u ji'a (I guess beginners should write what they intended to say as wel= l, in English,)
>> te zu'e lo nu frili dragau (in order to make correcting easier= .)
>>
>> .i ta'o ba lo nu rau lisri cu se ciska zo'u jmajygau (By t= he way, when enough entries are written, we'd collect them.)
>> .i ja'e bo barda ke fatci lisri (This makes for a big true sto= ry)
>> gi'e voi ro da zifre lo ka tcidu ke'a (that anyone can rea= d.)
>> .i da'i cinri sai (It'd be very interesting)
>> fa lo nu tcidu lo me lo drata moi djekarni fasnu (-- reading someo= ne else's stories from their diary.)
>>
>> .i do ma jinvi lo sidbo (What do you think about the idea?)
>> .i mi se pluka da'i lo nu do spuda fi tu'a lo se jinvi be = ba'e do (I'd be glad if you sent me such feedback.)
>> co'o ru'e (See you!)
>>
>> -- mu'o
>>
>> --
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>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an email to l= ojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an email to l= ojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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>
>
> --
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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