Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:58:12 -0800 (PST)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: Lojban Beginners <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
Cc: itay.sharon100@gmail.com
Message-Id: <28607e6e-b58d-43d6-a410-52a7ee5e18ed@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAGx=Ti4gpHDuosyR85wUtfOgbEqYyxdekDrdMYfAUUMhDfFoCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGx=Ti6LdZnRJgmxp19KB0Tem-fZw6zsQZpsspjR=JToe9oCTw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGx=Ti7nwLhkfMf2XQsA=LAKFcNLf5dG=cVMC5Lq486CpkasCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGx=Ti4gpHDuosyR85wUtfOgbEqYyxdekDrdMYfAUUMhDfFoCA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Getting started with lojban
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="----=_Part_6674_2078875883.1487123892573"
Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.5
X-Spam_score_int: -14
X-Spam_bar: -
Content-Length: 11509

------=_Part_6674_2078875883.1487123892573
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_6675_2044864728.1487123892574"

------=_Part_6675_2044864728.1487123892574
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

First try one of the following four materials.

1. la karda
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda
I recommend it for all beginners. It contains basic ideas of Lojban, and it 
is not too long.

2. hajiloji
http://cogas.github.io/hajiloji/
If you speak Japanese, you will find there the best-of-the-world texbook 
written by Cogas with many corrections by Sosobotpi.

3. ko lojbo iu
http://guskant.github.io/kolojbo.iu/
I also created a beginners' audio course with text in Japanese, though I 
would like to revise it to a better version in near future.

4. private lessons by Selpa'i (he might have changed his own name to 
Solpa'i)
https://www.reddit.com/r/lojban/comments/1v6v0h/learn_lojban_with_selpai_private_lessons/
Try it if you are rich. The teacher is the best-of-the-world Lojban speaker.

After finishing one of them, you can try reading/listening of materials in 
Lojban:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/te_gerna_la_lojban
The materials may contain errors in Lojban, or dialects of Lojban.
You can check for grammatical structure with some parsers:
http://lojban.github.io/ilmentufa/camxes.html
As for some dialects, I prepared variations of parsers:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/zantufa/en#Classes_of_Zantufa
You can check for the definition of words by dictionaries:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojbanic_Software#Dictionaries
You can also try writing/speaking in Lojban. You don't need to obey the 
ways of expression of senior Lojbanists. They are more or less culturally 
biased, and you can create your own expressions as long as it is parsed and 
not much far from definition of words.
It you want to create a new word, add it to {jbovlaste}, the source of all 
the dictionaries above:
http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/
In reading/listening/writing/speaking in Lojban, you'd better sometimes 
check for the original concepts of Lojban in 
[
"The Complete Lojban Language" 
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Complete_Lojban_Language
or
the online version "The Lojban Reference Grammar"
http://lojban.github.io/cll/
]
plus "BPFK Sections".
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Sections

You may find other textbooks, but I have some reasons I don't recommend 
them as follows.

5. Lojban for Beginners
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_For_Beginners,_The_Book
or the archived html version
http://web.archive.org/web/20150118224452/http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html
I first tried it but I did not understand well. Maybe it is aimed at 
English-speaking readers, while I don't speak English very well. You may 
try it, but you need to pay attention to the outdated explanation of 
articles ({gadri} in lojban), which I explained there:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri:_an_unofficial_commentary_from_a_logical_point_of_view

6. Lojban Wave Lessons
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons
It is recommended by some people, to which I don't belong. It used to 
contain explanations with misunderstanding in Logic, but some of them are 
already fixed. The main reason for I don't recommend it is that it includes 
culturally biased experimental part of speech ({selma'o} in Lojban). You 
will find the explanation at 3 minutes 36 seconds of my recent documentary 
video (You will see the English subtitles by clicking on the CC button 
there):
https://vimeo.com/190637628
Only because of that point, I regard the text as aiming at only geeks who 
freely use such {selma'o} lacking philosophy. Besides, the text is too long 
for a textbook to be finished. If you have such a time to read that long 
text, you'd better strive for the Complete Lojban Language.

7. The Crash Course (a draft)
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Crash_Course_(a_draft)
It is the worst course I've ever seen. The contents are much biased to the 
writer's original values. It used to contain many dialects that are not 
generally agreed, but the grammatical dialects of them were already removed 
after the writer misunderstood my complaint.
# I said to the writer "Don't pretend to be official! Teach them on your 
own website, or obey BPFK!" with meaning of "exclusive or" ({jo nai} in 
Lojban), but he ignored this basic Logic, and misunderstood as if I said 
"obey BPFK" only. 
Any way, it still contains semantic dialects that are not generally agreed. 
You will find the explanation at 25 minutes 17 seconds of the documentary 
video above about one of the semantic dialects taught in the Crash Course 
without mentioning "it's a dialect". 

mu'o

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_6675_2044864728.1487123892574
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>First try one of the following four materials.</div><=
div><br></div><div>1. la karda</div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/la_kar=
da</div><div>I recommend it for all beginners. It contains basic ideas of L=
ojban, and it is not too long.</div><div><br></div><div>2. hajiloji</div><d=
iv>http://cogas.github.io/hajiloji/</div><div>If you speak Japanese, you wi=
ll find there the best-of-the-world texbook written by Cogas with many corr=
ections by Sosobotpi.</div><div><br></div><div>3. ko lojbo iu</div><div>htt=
p://guskant.github.io/kolojbo.iu/</div><div>I also created a beginners&#39;=
 audio course with text in Japanese, though I would like to revise it to a =
better version in near future.</div><div><br></div><div>4. private lessons =
by Selpa&#39;i (he might have changed his own name to Solpa&#39;i)</div><di=
v>https://www.reddit.com/r/lojban/comments/1v6v0h/learn_lojban_with_selpai_=
private_lessons/</div><div>Try it if you are rich. The teacher is the best-=
of-the-world Lojban speaker.</div><div><br></div><div>After finishing one o=
f them, you can try reading/listening of materials in Lojban:</div><div>htt=
ps://mw.lojban.org/papri/te_gerna_la_lojban</div><div>The materials may con=
tain errors in Lojban, or dialects of Lojban.</div><div>You can check for g=
rammatical structure with some parsers:</div><div>http://lojban.github.io/i=
lmentufa/camxes.html</div><div>As for some dialects, I prepared variations =
of parsers:</div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/zantufa/en#Classes_of_Zan=
tufa</div><div>You can check for the definition of words by dictionaries:</=
div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojbanic_Software#Dictionaries</div><d=
iv>You can also try writing/speaking in Lojban. You don&#39;t need to obey =
the ways of expression of senior Lojbanists. They are more or less cultural=
ly biased, and you can create your own expressions as long as it is parsed =
and not much far from definition of words.</div><div>It you want to create =
a new word, add it to {jbovlaste}, the source of all the dictionaries above=
:</div><div>http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/</div><div>In reading/listening/wri=
ting/speaking in Lojban, you&#39;d better sometimes check for the original =
concepts of Lojban in=C2=A0</div><div>[</div><div>&quot;The Complete Lojban=
 Language&quot;=C2=A0</div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The_Complete_Lo=
jban_Language</div><div>or</div><div>the online version &quot;The Lojban Re=
ference Grammar&quot;</div><div>http://lojban.github.io/cll/</div><div>]</d=
iv><div>plus &quot;BPFK Sections&quot;.</div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/pap=
ri/BPFK_Sections</div><div><br></div><div>You may find other textbooks, but=
 I have some reasons I don&#39;t recommend them as follows.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>5. Lojban for Beginners</div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Loj=
ban_For_Beginners,_The_Book</div><div>or the archived html version</div><di=
v>http://web.archive.org/web/20150118224452/http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudji=
s/lojbanbrochure/lessons/book1.html</div><div>I first tried it but I did no=
t understand well. Maybe it is aimed at English-speaking readers, while I d=
on&#39;t speak English very well. You may try it, but you need to pay atten=
tion to the outdated explanation of articles ({gadri} in lojban), which I e=
xplained there:</div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri:_an_unofficial_=
commentary_from_a_logical_point_of_view</div><div><br></div><div>6. Lojban =
Wave Lessons</div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons</div=
><div>It is recommended by some people, to which I don&#39;t belong. It use=
d to contain explanations with misunderstanding in Logic, but some of them =
are already fixed. The main reason for I don&#39;t recommend it is that it =
includes culturally biased experimental part of speech ({selma&#39;o} in Lo=
jban). You will find the explanation at 3 minutes 36 seconds of my recent d=
ocumentary video (You will see the English subtitles by clicking on the CC =
button there):</div><div>https://vimeo.com/190637628</div><div>Only because=
 of that point, I regard the text as aiming at only geeks who freely use su=
ch {selma&#39;o} lacking philosophy. Besides, the text is too long for a te=
xtbook to be finished. If you have such a time to read that long text, you&=
#39;d better strive for the Complete Lojban Language.</div><div><br></div><=
div>7. The Crash Course (a draft)</div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/The=
_Crash_Course_(a_draft)</div><div>It is the worst course I&#39;ve ever seen=
. The contents are much biased to the writer&#39;s original values. It used=
 to contain many dialects that are not generally agreed, but the grammatica=
l dialects of them were already removed after the writer misunderstood my c=
omplaint.</div><div># I said to the writer &quot;Don&#39;t pretend to be of=
ficial! Teach them on your own website, or obey BPFK!&quot; with meaning of=
 &quot;exclusive or&quot; ({jo nai} in Lojban), but he ignored this basic L=
ogic, and misunderstood as if I said &quot;obey BPFK&quot; only.=C2=A0</div=
><div>Any way, it still contains semantic dialects that are not generally a=
greed. You will find the explanation at 25 minutes 17 seconds of the docume=
ntary video above about one of the semantic dialects taught in the Crash Co=
urse without mentioning &quot;it&#39;s a dialect&quot;.=C2=A0</div><div><br=
></div><div>mu&#39;o</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Lojban Beginners&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lo=
jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban-beginners@goo=
glegroups.com">lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-begin=
ners">https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_6675_2044864728.1487123892574--

------=_Part_6674_2078875883.1487123892573--