Received: from mail-it0-f63.google.com ([209.85.214.63]:50488) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1dW29G-0000r3-Me for lojban-beginners-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:04:55 -0700 Received: by mail-it0-f63.google.com with SMTP id v205sf384434itf.1 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:04:54 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1500044688; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=NJB1mZbAihdVSne0WS/3kcrsNfecUnFrNzJyUaQyB/xvPmyYJd48kGN23KPdDVdLUE TiyUdok/pujhZcmjUunlDXyvAYf8glXJyhPjENAeOMBkL43G6JCt7fnh3r0rHPaDh/pz Q1prrATxhqgmwFsKSZDnAzEx2vn+CbRvLuvCdBjXGGiE0Sl3GdvyysDZUJzn72pWMSeQ FYRL8XjTsIbYcQ69Os8UhJxx181nAbCouPuvPt31gKi/d4h0eULksCq5QDLhBD8uu6kz x0z2bqbkyA5hcpoVMarXhZJZZdWun8+uh9+uR6EiNfUO8FTWGjOvi+94Eg5++2t6bFl3 ANYw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:to:subject:message-id:date :from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:arc-authentication-results :arc-message-signature:sender:dkim-signature:dkim-signature :arc-authentication-results; bh=bZbW5DEnuFdaLd2syc3+OktzStXyGtaQ409pWFjeYcw=; b=ntTNvyiSQbBkxUo9HgOi9F0rTufy/arWdWBrmpICJbv2uLBvzdXkQS6BnE69c0Tliz yhAi+P2xZoZbRW8d0hY80dpL6+aPeQMhACAS7ohXUlzVGxkucCy8i5Tiz/AMwqsaHD8H OpFnNvh7m8bD/XuaGTgrliFcwqSDe4skmaF9IFRIkFhGjqRS8OYb45gbjJUto/gYyoBk OaZqdnoFtsobg6C4mhQqQpVTw9acy7+L36Jq6MJofys93KgXQTsc4fCq6fbUb8WXK9Ko XsyzQk5WShXWs4j7bqf6QxHwsGNs1WC6V+aoS8902rt6uuQTtOYMeFsW3djr0GTZV+EU GN8A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.b=PE9yGONO; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lytlesw@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=bZbW5DEnuFdaLd2syc3+OktzStXyGtaQ409pWFjeYcw=; b=TylJZ6mDC5srfxh57/zNVJ+DZfg5rkRZbXM736rusA0womXnMmF5AAqdphg2ISLR6y VDiHV3V+82gasSOVq55fYmmP23ZFUnZ8J0RqT4Fxar0eYiujaKaBjVUIqatxiqlZLvoM fduIZvUnXymPPTAgXHO7wh2z75YzAzabWsQ+dmD+RjIkv00U5vzJ0eTJWIT+nXhiFS9Y 7ne43l8r1ktxWcuOuHGc0ifLrq1xQUBFVXKND22yu+j8LN9Fo/Mzt4OLEy3dyazAfn0B ou/NgJxRlRece3WyBr8FlgssF52g3BOONw3sTrseMrNd0rFqtJCGcIRGxMe6hjElv5N3 RYGQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=bZbW5DEnuFdaLd2syc3+OktzStXyGtaQ409pWFjeYcw=; b=O5H+ISYuiGKdszryWAUeQ+b7MxoUavRGV8+kaoMBvQ2PW8ZXPq3he9OPJf1TP56y0U kl2ctRa4P7jhOyPLdAZzuyU1KRz1dqkNtZnr3wQwyedOTg8rLEvBCp1o/3BPBbR3G2XJ MSSQk6G3dLHyBOQUVX/3YjNI3elWD/aEQIs0Py0DjRpRY+DAIj5HSkXKbvQgLVqTy5nk 2AZTtvt8A/79zQ8xIVHZafe895mj9xP6Vpv89usdrMNeNnpvsEm/6JJ52QPac1ECOriQ u9MTepzZUjPFeYcGl9y0fOxxC+4rpwez9tiygmpwNqAmbBVO7PZgYUXoKTQvJXYfpoga RQFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=bZbW5DEnuFdaLd2syc3+OktzStXyGtaQ409pWFjeYcw=; b=W4qN0YZYvBat29jWfMKho2RID3eCzd7rQXmhD4NEqLcPExSrO5ONP+PQRIH0FN1/Xc byxJpXKfOW91/SE6Zr0G1HKl0cE+a8yvTcWOtCawe5Ergw+Uz8B9Bxx8t6bzGkE9fmCl GCxGk8BubTpgHq60mU5o50sWOV7oZq9BBwyTfkQwjfaXCz7DcZqxMCHazNmPq1HF9oYZ zCJESrczs/yEebYYrl3AfIzH8J6syAKXi+Zwmv3L80pQS0cH5BD/64+GhRM2KZ9pdwek J+4mHq3QHFrPX/O6z8MGgq8Hx4ppdfeBu7n04WgZOZP0TVwkoj+NQXO/jtkWOGrG5lE/ qSrg== Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110qg+fNDb/fYxCC7y1xkq/iqSZr3KRUFi44sOOrHGMBj1SPyf5d PSHEvGy+jwGdrg== X-Received: by 10.36.83.73 with SMTP id n70mr104844itb.0.1500044688476; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:04:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.36.80.84 with SMTP id m81ls1551487itb.20.canary-gmail; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:04:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.107.32.11 with SMTP id g11mr6165286iog.101.1500044687092; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:04:47 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1500044687; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=w/+n2gDONvwFwGztIi+j1T8Z9IY3j1ZkcxOD9dhfVlWyV+z8EVZN2IaIiM7cAP8cEZ QcWkVFKacT4hbpH/VBaXLai3s7U+fo0/VPyki6Sd3aXVv77hiDNd3Omfhmf/TH/yKQdn 2ezqtQMuBJbw3meNvmtDDCqUECgwueMYGIbJd4wUSF5+RQRkWRW2RY46M1k5kcvrOJ+K 6+frYYMXBq4TlTb7VLWknhBJIeo6ZRb+dyEzl+zVnCumEB4QhiLOs5h/icwEDcOa+c+F nYuaOItXdmKW5VW56Wld3Xku5floVj5szVxx/Yjy2xDWrtIszH4q8JqmoLVThBOOYufN 7l3w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :dkim-signature:arc-authentication-results; bh=GgwbDzoWlfM+RivXvY8Ml9ggM/R8jkqX29F7NhGi2Ys=; b=rJMsy5+aD+KSv376nEYlCFpfMYLcwDvtv1kq0OPZFrYIY1hfMmVXfZld9qZA3Z0DYe gGGpmz4XpsfpByAhaPtoVkft1huTAv+J9mZMgUemhmrzKd+UNbx6tpks7Txg3e06DdfC GEiLY3nbBlRnV7xdLv2UkKU82XZ55fH5F6TiiAlJOsL3jcjnz1gwBVtvkpkYa1KLesGk zQeCQlk0eFqrbODqpowRO2bN6+uPFJai73bzMhwveyDWWJ82jQ7RbsJT83VuXXqgk8ax 5uqUGj2YLf/zdPQf7C2VKcYGIMLl86Pp/FgeJKE9n/e9uHkbJNn2K0IDHh3x2wRNh3Mb nZaA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.b=PE9yGONO; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lytlesw@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Received: from mail-pg0-x22b.google.com (mail-pg0-x22b.google.com. [2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q201si1868975pfq.8.2017.07.14.08.04.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b; Received: by mail-pg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id t186so47189785pgb.1 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:04:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.99.189.1 with SMTP id a1mr3552927pgf.3.1500044686613; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:04:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.163.131 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:04:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <54465f94-703e-48f8-8d8b-b0a1622c0ce0@googlegroups.com> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 10:04:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Is Lojban actually learnable? To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1be906b160d80554485e94" X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.b=PE9yGONO; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lytlesw@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 300742228892 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -4.8 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.8 X-Spam_score_int: -47 X-Spam_bar: ---- Content-Length: 7676 --94eb2c1be906b160d80554485e94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Kids don't learn languages almost effortlessly (automatically, yes, but that's not really the point). They spend all their waking hours learning language, working at it very hard. It just looks effortless because they're so good at. stevo On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG wrote: > On 8/22/2016 1:27 PM, gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com wrote: > >> Em segunda-feira, 22 de agosto de 2016 12:45:16 UTC+3, la uakci escreveu: >> >> Nah, I'm doing it for 1 year and I feel very close to fluency. *sei >> tolcumla* >> >> >> Nope. la uakci learnt it in just 4 months to kinda fluency (vague term >> but who asks for standardized test?). Proved by logs. >> > > Nick Nicolas in 1991 spent only a weekend reading everything we had then > (long before CLL was written), and was writing better translations than > anyone else up to that point almost immediately. He wasn't yet "fluent", > but I suspect that many of his translations still stand up 25 years later > (at least if one corrects for the rafsi changes, since most of those > translations predate the rafsi reassignment and other baselining efforts in > the 1992-1994 timeframe. > > Nick had considerable experience in learning languages, which certainly > made a difference. But the bottom line is that young kids learn languages > almost automatically; adults have to work at it. But if you do work at it, > and are willing to accept a period of making lots of mistakes and learning > from them, pretty much anyone can gain competency. > > (I myself am NOT a good language learner, and will probably never speak > Lojban fluently - I'm past 60 years old - but I still was able to muddle > through a conversation and could translate a text with word lookup > capability handy (but when I was actively conversing, I generally did NOT > stop to look up gismu - I made mistakes and learned from people failing to > understand me.) > > lojbab > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --94eb2c1be906b160d80554485e94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kids don't learn languages almost effortlessly (automati= cally, yes, but that's not really the point). They spend all their waki= ng hours learning language, working at it very hard. It just looks effortle= ss because they're so good at.=C2=A0

stevo

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at= 3:26 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG &l= t;lojbab@lojban.org<= /a>> wrote:
On= 8/22/2016 1:27 PM, gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com wrote:
Em segunda-feira, 22 de agosto de 2016 12:45:16 UTC+3, la uakci escreveu:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nah, I'm doing it for 1 year and I feel very close to flu= ency. *sei
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 tolcumla*


Nope. la uakci learnt it in just 4 months to kinda fluency (vague term
but who asks for standardized test?). Proved by logs.

Nick Nicolas in 1991 spent only a weekend reading everything we had then (l= ong before CLL was written), and was writing better translations than anyon= e else up to that point almost immediately.=C2=A0 He wasn't yet "f= luent", but I suspect that many of his translations still stand up 25 = years later (at least if one corrects for the rafsi changes, since most of = those translations predate the rafsi reassignment and other baselining effo= rts in the 1992-1994 timeframe.

Nick had considerable experience in learning languages, which certainly mad= e a difference.=C2=A0 But the bottom line is that young kids learn language= s almost automatically; adults have to work at it.=C2=A0 But if you do work= at it, and are willing to accept a period of making lots of mistakes and l= earning from them, pretty much anyone can gain competency.

(I myself am NOT a good language learner, and will probably never speak Loj= ban fluently - I'm past 60 years old - but I still was able to muddle t= hrough a conversation and could translate a text with word lookup capabilit= y handy (but when I was actively conversing, I generally did NOT stop to lo= ok up gismu - I made mistakes and learned from people failing to understand= me.)

lojbab


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= .
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to
lo= jban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--94eb2c1be906b160d80554485e94--