Re: [jboske] individuation and masses (was: RE: mass, group,

["Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@hotmail.com>]

la djan cusku di'e

> > But if you divide {pa nanmu} in many parts,
> > you don't end up with {so'i nanmu}, no matter how big the
> > pa nanmu was.
>
> Ah, but you can, if "pa nanmu" means "a regiment of men"
> (which is justified on the same basis as saying "pa birje" can mean
> "a vat of beer"). Gricean considerations will block this in most
> cases, but not all.

If this is so, then we're teaching the word wrong, because nobody
is using it like that. The gi'uste should be modified to read
"x1 is a quantity of men".

But that's just a disagreement about the meaning of {nanmu}.
If we agree that {nanmu} is about quantities of men rather
than plain men, then we can define a lujvo {naurka'u}, "x1 is
a man-quantum", for the normal meaning of English "man". Then
{pa naurka'u} cannot be divided into {so'i naurka'u}.

Or are you saying that it is impossible in Lojban to define
broda such that {pa broda} can't be divided into {so'i broda}?

> In short, I think of the notion of collectives as orthogonal to
> the individual/substance distinction. A collective may constitute
> an individual or a substance.

I can agree with that. But gadri are not supposed to be
predications on the referents of the term, but rather different
ways of referring to the same objects. For the same set of
referents {le'i broda} I can make two claims {le broda cu brode
ije lei broda cu brodi}. The objects described are the same, the
gadri only indicates how they enter into the relationship.
{le ze plise cu xunre ije lei ze plise cu se culno le tansi}
"each of the seven apples is red, and the seven apples as a whole
fill the bowl". I describe the same objects with different gadri
because they enter each relationship differently.

The individual/substance distinction, on the other hand, seems to
be used to describe different objects, so it is a distinction to
be made by using different selbri. There is no "apple stuff" that
corresponds directly to the set of seven apples, so if we were
to have a substance gadri it would not be related to the set in
the way other gadri work.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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