RE: [jboske] ta'e/na'o

["And Rosta" <a.rosta@lycos.co.uk>]

If my messages seem weirdly out of context, be aware that I sent this
one over 8 days ago. Lord knows how a message can take 8 days when
sometimes it takes 2 seconds.

--And..-

> -----Original Message-----
> From: And Rosta [mailto:a.rosta@lycos.co.uk]
> Sent: 26 October 2002 17:18
> To: jboske@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [jboske] ta'e/na'o
> 
> 
> xorxes:
> > What is the difference between {ta'e}, "habitually" and
> > {na'o}, "typically" 
> >
> > It seems to me that for an event to be typical in a given time
> > interval, it has to happen habitually, i.e. enough/most times
> > within the interval 
> 
> I suggest for "typically", something like: "for a sufficiently
> large number of randomly chosen occasions on which the world
> is examined, p is the case" 
> 
> I haven't digested your proposals yet, but in the meantime let
> me offer a comment on ta'e 
> 
> In linguistics, habitual aspect/aktionsart is not the same as
> 'habitually', 'as a habit'. Rather, it is a variety of {so'i roi},
> but involves a contrast between multiplicity of 'occasions', which
> is the 'habitual', and multiplicity of 'times'/'instances', which
> is the 'iterative' or 'frequentative', and is like the verbal
> counterpart of the nominal plural. The habitual is usually stative
> whereas the frequentative is nonstative (but nonetheless atelic) 
> 
> Contrast: 
> 
> iterative/frequentative:
> I knocked on the door three times 
> = I gave the door three knocks once/on one occasion 
> 
> I repeatedly knocked on the door 
> 
> habitual:
> I knocked on the door on three (separate) occasions 
> 
> I often knocked on the door 
> 
> I don't know whether this meaning can/should be attributed to 
> ta'e, though, because it arguably should be expressed by something
> in ROI. Otoh, the notion of a state arising from an open-ended
> number of recurrences of a certain type of event is perhaps worth
> singling out and ascribing to ta'e 
> 
> > For example:
> > 
> > ta'e le puzi nanca be li pano la djan stali le xelso ze'a lo'e crisa
> > Typically in the last ten years, John has spent the summer in Greece 
> > 
> > Given all possible instances in the ten year interval of John
> > spending the summer in Greece, enough/most of them actually
> > happened, so we can say that the event was typical in that
> > interval. Would that be a correct analysis?
> 
> Based on what I said above, this would be na'o, almost. 'Almost',
> because John spending his summer in Greece is not itself a 
> particularly typical feature of the last ten years. At this early 
> stage in thinking through the topic, I would feel safer with:
> 
> da poi la djan stali ke'a ze'a lo'e crisa zo'u
> na'o le pu zi nanci be li pa no da du le xelso
> 
> or, if we can agree on its equivalence to the former sentence,
> 
> la djan stali ze'a lo'e crisa na'o le pu zi nanci be li pa no 
> le xelso
> 
> > What about {na'o}? The only other aspect other than possible
> > time instances that I can think for an event to be typical in
> > is across possible worlds. Would {na'o} mean that the event
> > is typical across possible worlds? Something like:
> > 
> > na'o tu'o du'u la djan ponse lo jdini kei dy stali
> > le xelso ze'a lo'e crisa
> > Whenever John has money/if John had money, he would normally
> > spend the summer in Greece 
> > 
> > This would mean {ta'e} is approximately the same as {rau so'e roi}
> > and {na'o} is approximately {rau so'e mu'ei}. Would that be a
> > reasonable analysis?
> 
> It's certainly a good idea 
> 
> I suggest we follow what should be the standard proceedure, of
> distinguishing:
> 
> 1. What are the relevant sorts of meanings that we need to be
> able to express?
> 2. How do we express them?
> 3. Which ones are assigned to ta'e and na'o?
> 
> Things work smoother if we consider these issues separately and 
> in that order 
> 
> --And 
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