[lojban-beginners] Re: Lojban beginners list

[Michael van der Gulik <mikevdg@gulik.co.nz>]

Stiofan Mac Suibhne wrote:
<snip>

> The arguments / relationships etc, I can't quite get the feel of how
> that works.  I speak several European languages so am only able to
> express things in grammar terms I am familiar with at present.  I
> understand that one needs to understand something on its own terms,
> but I would be grateful for any insights you might be able to give
> me on how this might function, with examples in English of what
> these relationships achieve.  Are the arguments subject / object,
> the relationships verbs as we might understand things at present.
>  
Relationships are a concept known by logicians, mathematicians and 
computer scientists, so I don't blame you for being confused about it!

There is a relationship between you, for example, and your father - a 
father-son relationship. If your father's name is, e.g. "bob", then in 
Lojban you would express this relationship as "la bob patfu mi", where 
the relationship is "patfu", your father (x1 of patfu) is "la bob" and 
you (x2 of patfu) are "mi". So this is a fatherhood ("patfu") 
relationship between bob and you.

This is expanded to the more general sence. The overused example is "mi 
klama le zarci" - I go to the market. The relationship is "klama" - 
"going". x1 is "mi", x2 is "le zarci". So the relationship here is the 
"going" relationship, which is a relationship between you and the 
market. This may seem quite strange to somebody who hasn't spent years 
doing logic or math.

The Lojban word for relationship is "brivla", which is the main word in 
a Lojban sentence. These come in three flavours: gismu (base words), 
lujvo (compound words) and fu'ivla (words from other languages). An 
"argument" is just a complicated name for the x1, x2, x3, x4 or x5 
places of a brivla.

In terms of subjects, objects etc, these usually take the x1, x2... x5 
places of a brivla. For example, if you look up the definition of "dunda":

dunda: give
Definition: x1 [donor] gives/donates gift/present x2 to
           recipient/beneficiary x3 [without payment/exchange]

So if I say "mi dunda la cukta do", x1 is "mi", x2 is "la cukta", x3 is 
"do", and the brivla is the gismu "dunda".

In English, this sentence is "I give you the book". "I" is the subject, 
"the book" is the object and "you" is the indirect object. So I guess in 
this case, x1 is the subject, x2 is the object and x3 is the indirect 
object. However, there isn't really any need to think of things in terms 
of subjects and object in Lojban; the language is much simpler than 
European languages.

> with gismu, in pairs tanru?  the first modifies the second? Does
> that mean that the first has the function that adjective or adverb
> has in English (or French / Italian / Spanish / Gaeilge)
>  
Yes.

The last word in a pair, triplet, whatever of tanru is the one that 
carries the meaning of the sentence and specifies the places (x1, x2...) 
that the sentence has. The words that come before that act a bit like 
adjectives or adverbs. There are many exceptions and ways of confusing 
people though.

> Pronouncing Y, are there any mp3 files that we could listen to the,
> other vowels etc and consonants are ok, we make those sounds on a
> daily basis already.
>  
"y" is easy. Just relax everything in your mouth and throat, let your 
mouth hang open and make a noise.

Otherwise there are heaps of sound files here: 
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Multimedia&bl or use 
Google. There's a fair amount floating around the net - search for 
"lojban mp3".

Mikevdg.