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[lojban-beginners] Re: problem



I've replayed both that clip and my 'long recording of vowels', and my xy
does sometimes end up a little high, near y'y.

As for the holoalphabetic sentence, this is what I hear when I listen to it
(from jbocradi remo'o, for those who don't remember) .u'usai if I have
misspelled names on here, as I am spelling from sound only.

time - 4:31
Matt Arnold				x with trill
Theodore Reed x with slight trill - sound quality makes it hard to tell
Christopher Zurvick		x or h; very similar to his y'y
Bruce Webber			y'y and xy are nearly identical as h
Pier Abatt				x
Hal Fulton				x or X
Adam Rizen				x w/ slight trill
Jorge Llambías			x
time - 5:30

Since I can't use IPA in email, X is the uvular. The lower, more uvular, trilled pronunciation is clearly much easier to differentiate from y'y than the higher x which sometimes IPA c-with-a-tail (the ch in German ich) when I say it. So the former is probably a better pronunciation. I'm still not convinced that there should be a trill with the xy though. I will try stop by my Linguistics prof's office hours in the next few days and see if she can pronounce the different sounds
h, x, and X for me.

It occurs to me that this perhaps we should move off the beginners list for a bit if we have a lot of discussion to do, and then report back to it on the results.

mu'omi'e .aleks.

On Oct 12, 2006, at 3:58 PM, Matt Arnold wrote:

I've played that sound clip a dozen times in a row, on headphones. For
the life of me, the left-channel sound which you say is correct sounds
like "h". The right channel sound with the trill I recognize as "x".
If I'm incorrect on this, then so are the Lojbanists who sent in
recordings of themselves to play on the podcast, reading the
holoalphabetic sentence. No one is going to confuse that sound for
another letter in Lojban, but they will mistake the sound you say is
correct, for "h". Every time.

If these are alternate pronunciations, we would already have defacto
alternate pronunciations of {x}, which we have no choice but to
accept. I don't really consider it alternate, for the same reason that
I consider plosives in English to be the same sound whether they are
pronounced with an actual plosive, or just pronouced as a stop.

-epkat

On 10/12/06, Alex Martini <alexjm@umich.edu> wrote:
In episode two, I hear you use an unvoiced velar (maybe glottal)
trill when reading the holoalphabetic sentence, and when you say {xu}
in the list of cmavo at the end.

For comparison purposes, I stuck a short recoding of both on my site.
http://umich.edu/~alexjm/

I would suspect that if a Lojban speaker hears the velar fricative,
the uvular fricative, or the velar trill, these are all close enough
to get across the point that {x} was the intended phoneme. How were
the original "allowed alternates" decided, and is it possible to add
to these at some point?

On Oct 12, 2006, at 2:09 PM, Matt Arnold wrote:

> On 10/12/06, Gabriel Koulikov <gabekoulikov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From what I can tell, even Matt Arnold of the wonderful
>> jbocradi podcast mispronounces it in ALL of his podcasts to date.
>
> That's news to me. What do the others think?
> -Matt (epkat)
>