[lojban-beginners] Re: forbidden consonant pairs

[Nathaniel Krause <nathanielkrause@yahoo.com>]

Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:28 PM, wrote:
> In a message dated 4/2/2008 04:42:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
> ecartis@digitalkingdom.org writes:
>
> 4) The specific pairs ``cx'', ``kx'', ``xc'', ``xk'', and ``mz''
> are forbidden.
>
> If "sx" and "xs" are allowed (and they are), then "cx" and "xc" should be
> allowed too.

 "sx" and "cx" should even be valid initials. "sx" is the only valid
pair that starts with "s" but is not a valid initial.

> If "nz" is allowed, then "mz" should be. Ruling out one in favor of the
> other makes no sense.

Same with the triplets ntc, nts, ndj, ndz.

And forbidding "xk" and "kx" while allowing "fp", "pf", "ts", "st",
which are also stop and fricative pairs at the same point of
articulation, is not very consistent.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

I would guess that the logic of allowing "sx" but disallowing "cx" is that the sounds of "c" and "x" are too similar and so it might be difficult for speakers to keep them distinct as a cluster in normal speech. It seems plausible that "x" might tend to be fronted to something closer to [ç] (the palatal fricative) in some environments. "c" apparently includes sibiliants realised anywhere behind the alveolar ridge, so there is some possibility of overlap.

The logic of forbidding "mz" is apparently the opposite: that "mz" is likely to mutate into "nz" because nasal sounds like to cluster with other sounds that are at the same position. I can't say this sounds very compelling to me, though, and I
 wouldn't mind seeing this rule abandoned.

As for "kx", Wikipedia notes that the [kx] affricate is quite uncommon in the world's languages. On the other hand, it says the same about the [pf] affricate, and clearly not all stop-continuant consonant clusters in Lojban are intended to be seen as affricates. I wonder how the world's languages tend to handle clusters involving [x] across syllable boundaries.

Personally, I find [kx] difficult to pronounce, but that, of course, is subjective. On the other hand, I find [xk] fairly readily pronounceable, and actually fairly euphonious -- that is even more subjective.

mu'o mi'e .sen.

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