[lojban-beginners] Re: xelfanva

[Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com>]

de'i li 13 pi'e 01 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Brett Williams .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> > "The most essential right of man is the right to question."
> >  - lo traji jicmu selzi'e be loi remna du lo selzi'e po'u lonu senpi
> 
> "traji jicmu selzi'e" might get the point across, but the whole sentence
> doesn't feel very lojbanic
> 
> i'd just translate it as like "le nu senpi cu traji lo ka vajni kei lo ka
> zmadu kei le'i se zifre", or, ta'unai,
> "le nu senpi cu vajni traji fo le'i se zifre"
.skamyxatra

I suppose I could shorten it down to "{jicmu traji zifre fa loi remna lonu
senpi}," though "{lonu senpi cu jicmu traji fo lo'i selzi'e}," possibly with
"{be loi remna}" appended, or even xorxes' "{lo traji jicmu selzi'e be lo remna
cu nu senpi}", does seem somewhat better and/or more Lojbanic.

> > "If there's nothing out there, what was that noise?"
> >  - ganai da'i noda va bartu gi ma pu va savru
> 
> I think this is ganai/gi abuse.. i think you're asking: "what is there that
> was a noise if nothing was outside, or perhaps otherwise, but wasn't a noise
> if there wasn't nothing outside?" or something crazy like that.
> 
> i'd just say something like ".ia nai no da va bartu .i ma pu va savru".. but
> if you wanted some more connection maybe ".ia nai no da va bartu .i ma pu va
> savru va'o lo da'i nu go'i"

What about just "{va'o lonu da'i noda va bartu kei ma pu va savru}"?

> > "There is no magic in this world."
> >  - no makfa cu nenri lo vi munje
> >  - Should "{nenri}" be changed to "{se vasru}" or "{zvati}"?
> 
> i dunno, what is it that's magic and is it really in or at?  especially
> tricky question i guess since these are theoretical nonexistent only makfa
> 
> maybe just "no nu makfa cu fasnu bu'u le vi terdi"

Thinking about this some more, perhaps "{noda makfa bu'u le vi munje}" (not
"{terdi}") would be best.

> > "What can happen once can happen again."
> >  - lo paroi se kakne cu rere'u se kakne
> >  OR
> >  - lo ka'e fasnu cu ka'e selkrefu
> >  - I'm more confident about the accuracy of the latter, but I'd prefer the
> >   former, as it's closer to the English wording.
> 
> a "se kakne" is something which someone is able to do under some
> circumstances

The entry in the {gismu} list doesn't say that it's agentive; "{lo kakne}"
could be, say, the laws of physics.

> "ka'e" is somewhat controversial but probably vaguer than you meant
> maybe "so'i pa moi fasnu cu za'u roi fasnu"

Just because it happens once doesn't mean it has to happen more than once, just
that it *could*.

> > "If you think about The Game, you lose The Game."
> >  - do la terjvi ganai pensi gi fliba
> >  - No, I'm not going to use "{selkei}"; the Game is not a plaything.
> 
> .i ku'i pau la'o gy The Game gy cu jivna ba'e fo ma
> (But The Game is a competition for *what gain*?)

ma'a na djuno pu lonu da jinga
(We won't know until someone wins.)

> > "May you live in interesting times."
> >  - .au do lifri lo cinri cedra
> 
> ".a'o" might be more appropriate, ".au" is usually i personally want this to
> occur, so that feels to me like "i want you to live in interesting times"
> maybe even "ca'e" would be good

I think personal desire is more fitting, given that "May you live in
interesting times" is a curse -- the worst curse in the Agatean Empire on
Discworld.

de'i li 13 pi'e 01 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. komfo,amonan .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com>wrote:
> > "If gods do evil then they are not gods. -- Euripides"
> >  - lo cevni ganai pacyzu'e gi na'e cevni vau cu'u sa'a la .iuripydeis.
> 
> Certainly Euripides's name should be lojbanized from his own language. I
> suggest {.e,uripides.} [that's Attic Greek; modern Greek would yield
> {.evripidis.}]
.skamyxatra

I was actually trying to Lojbanize the Greek form.  According to the etymology
in my Latin dictionary, the Greek spelling of Euripides is "ÎáÏÎÏÎÎÎÏ" (I hope
that comes out right).  I'm not sure exactly how the "eu" should be pronounced
or Lojbanized, but I'm positive that eta corresponds to Lojban "ei".  I'm not
sure why I used an {.ybu} for the final iota; I think I was trying to reproduce
the emphasis in Latin (which is on the antepenult), and I don't know whether or
not the accent mark on the iota indicates that the penult should be emphasized.

de'i li 13 pi'e 01 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Jorge LlambÃas .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
> I'm not sure "fendi" is the best choice here. Who divides it? What are
> the partitions? (And in any case, Lojban is not just a collection of
> words, so saying that all of it is divided into just three parts
> sounds wrong.) Maybe:
> 
> ci da klesi lo lojbo valsi (lo ka tarmi)
> There are exactly three kinds of Lojban words (by morphology)
> 
> lo lojbo valsi klesi cu ci mei
> Lojban word classes are three.
> 
> although those might be too much of a distortion of your original.
.skamyxatra

Yes, it is too much of a distortion.  The quote is meant to be analogous to the
opening line of Caesar's *De Bello Gallico* -- "Gallia est omnia divisa in
partes tres" -- "All Gaul is divided into three parts" (though attempting to
match the Latin word order wouldn't be practical).

> I don't think you want to add a common argument with {cu'u} here. That
> expands to:
> 
> lo cevni goi ko'a  la .iuripydeis. goi ko'e zo'u
> ganai ko'a pacyzu'e cu'u sa'a ko'e gi ko'a na'e cevni cu'u sa'a ko'e
> 
> which is not right. I think you need {sei [sa'a] la .iuripides. cu cusku}.

True, a discursive {bridi} would have been a better choice.  Would I still need
the "{vau}" in order to make it clear that the "{sei}" attaches to the whole
{bridi} rather than to "{cevni}"?

> lo se kakne is something that can be done, not just something that can happen.

As I said above, the definition for "{kakne}" does not say that it is agentive;
it could be used for things that the physical universe is capable of and thus
things that can happen in general.

> > "This must be Thursday.  I never could get the hang of Thursdays."
> >  - li'a .e'i ca vondei .i mi na'e pu'i kufra loi vondei
> 
> I think this is an epistemic "must". Maybe "ju'o" or "ru'a". I don't
> think ".e'i" works here.

"{.e'i}" is there because Arthur is feeling contrained/resigned to it being
Thursday.

> Not sure what "na'e pu'i" means.

The {cmavo} list says it means "has never, and perhaps cannot."

> > "Reason #10DF1 to learn Lojban: No one speaks English anymore."
> >  - lo panojauvaipa moi krinu be lonu cilre fi la lojban. zo'u
> >   noda ca'o se bangu la gliban.
> >  - I'm really not sure about my choice of "{ca'o}" to approximate "anymore."
> 
> I would use "za'o".

"No one continues to speak English for too long"?

> Not sure why you translate "rules" as "pruce".

It's to emphasize that things themselves change rather than the system that
they go through or should go through.  "{javni}" may be a more direct
translation, but it loses the association with its initial state.

> > "With Math, all things are possible."
> >  - fi'o kansa la cmaci ro da cumki
> 
> "fi'o kansa" or "se pi'o"?

lo'u fi'o kansa le'u .i noda pilno la cmaci .i la cmaci cu pilno roda

mu'omi'e la kamymecraijun.

-- 
do ganai ka'e tcidu dei gi djuno lo dukse