Miles has point, though. His views on the denpa bu are pretty interesting. The approximants in [uV] and [iV], IPA /j/ and /w/, can be consonantal, which frees them of denpa bu requirement as explained in the CLL, which does so because it considers them to be real vowels, which they aren't quite.
When it comes to actually *writing* the denpa bu, I am a bad example. In informal IRC chat, I practically never use it, but in my translations, I do. It depends simply on how hooked you are on audio-visual isomorphism, which Lojban doesn't actually even adhere to so much, says xorxes. I think that in more formal contexts, like translations or any official-ish written work, it's important to put them, but otherwise, in that regard, I see them much like periods, commas or other punctuation in English: elidable when no confusion results.
mu'o mi'e la tsani
On 10 May 2012 15:36, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
Not to mention that the CLL specifically SAYS that "uV" and "iV" require a pause before them. (Chapter 4.2) You are right, Miles, "Some here seem to lack reading comprehension"
--gejyspa
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Jonathan Jones
<eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Miles Forster
<m3o@plasmatix.com> wrote:
.y bu is not "u". .u bu is. And the u in ui is not pronounced [u]
but [w] which *is* a consonant. Some here seem to lack reading
comprehension. It's annoying to argue with people who won't listen
to what the other person is saying.
Whether or not something is a vowel depends on the way it's
pronounced, not the way it's written.
I'm sorry, Miles, but you're wrong. There are no consonants in the Lojban word ".ui". Regardless of it's pronunciation as the leading vowel of a diphthong, u is still a vowel.
And just so we're clear, a diphthong is a sound represented by a combination of two vowels. In Lojban, the diphthong "ui" is pronounced as in the English word "we", but that does not suddenly make the "u" in it a consonant.
mu'o
Am 10.05.2012 02:12, schrieb Michael Turniansky:
It is, and it always does require a pause in
front of it. Miles is wrong.
--gejyspa
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 8:10 PM,
Álvaro Vallejo
<avallejor@gmail.com>
wrote:
.uesai
- "The initial period can never be omitted before vowels
(if they are phonetically vowels. {ui} = [wi],
so no dot is necessary). "
- "ui does not begin in a vowel.
Therefore, no denpa bu is needed."
Well... I am really shocked! How is it that "u" is not a
vowel? It IS a vowel or I should start learning again
Lojban from zero: it's name is indeed ybu, isn't it?
(Chapter 1 of Lojban for beginners, Chapter 2 of CLL)...
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.i da xamgu ganse fi no na'ebo lo risna
.i lo vajrai cu nonselji'u lo kanla
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )