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Re: [lojban-beginners] "Should" and "would"
Am 28.10.2012 21:56, schrieb mudri:
{.ei} fits sometimes (in the {.eiro'a} sense), but I was primarily
thinking of the use of "should have done x" to mean "x would have
optimised your position (in life, &c.)".
You're probably reading the old definition of {.ei}. Its use has changed
somewhat to make it more useful so that the three examples I gave are
now exactly what you want, that is, they aren't really about obligation.
To take "position" literally,
you could say whilst reviewing a chess match "you should have taken that
bishop with your knight, rather than your pawn". There is no obligation
to do this (the erring player could still have won); it is more of a
suggestion.
.ei lo do xirma .e nai lo do sonci pu catra lo va xanto
Your knight and not your pawn should have killed that bishop.
(I happen to have played chess in Lojban a few times :) )
{va'o} seems to be a good fit for if... would statements. I've come
across the fact that abstractions are not necessarily true before. As
for {da'i} I haven't understood before what it means. It's listed as
"supposing", but, as a UI, it can't create the structures I'd expect
from "supposing". To me, "supposing" is usually used in "supposing that
x, y", where x is the supposed fact and y is the main statement. But I
suppose (zo'o) that your explanation makes sense.
Whatever you mark with {da'i} (and that can be either the entire
sentence or just a part of it depending on where you place it) becomes
counterfactual. It's a supposed situation, just like a phrase that
contains "would". Generally, cmavo definitions can't be taken by
themselves, there is usually quite a bit of history behind them. It
helps to check those past discussions (and their conclusions) and to
compare usage as well.
I don't understand how you've used {mu'ei}. How can we claim things
about every alternate history? What if in one of them you had different
parents, and inherited a few selfishness genes (assuming that this
alternate person could be considered "you", and not a child from that
other parent - be'o - who was not born either).
PA mu'ei == TAG
The things you listed above are all things we can tag with {mu'ei} as
being part of the alternate world(s) we're talking about. The second
example I gave shows this, let me repeat it and add an interlinear gloss:
mi no mu'ei lo du'u do mi slabu cu na djica lo nu mi do speni
I, in zero worlds in which it is the case that I know you, will not want
to marry you.
(Which more or less means "I would want to marry you no matter what")
This is a strong statement, but since it's about love, I think it's a
fitting means to express one's strong feelings.
It is true that it could include worlds in which you have a different
backstory, the only thing that must be the case is "lo du'u do mi
slabu". You could go for a complete specification of all the
predications that hold in the world you are talking about, but that
would be difficult. Consider the example sentence to use an incomplete
specification. The speaker only felt the need to mention this one
predication.
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
--
doị mèlbi mlenì'u
.i do càtlu ki'u
ma fe la xàmpre ŭu
.i do tìnsa càrmi
gi'e sìrji se tàrmi
.i taị bo pu cìtka lo gràna ku
.
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