[lojban-beginners] Re: {ko} and {do} with .a-/.e- attitudinals

[guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>]

Le mardi 20 novembre 2012 01:44:52 UTC+9, guskant a écrit :
> Le samedi 17 novembre 2012 09:23:29 UTC+9, mudri a écrit :
> > Should {ko} be used in sentences marked with {.e'o}? It's something I see often (and usually do myself), but {do} is generally used with {.e'u} in particular. My thought was that, because attitudinals beginning with "a" and "e" (and some "i") show that the marked text is a hypothetical assertion, not a real one, using {do} would be the correct thing for the hypothetical world (in which la'e {do} is actually doing what is said in the sentence). .iepei
>
>
>
> {do} may be a hypothetical one as well as a real one, depending on the context. For example,
> ganai do da'i morsi ginai mi jbena 
> The whole sentence may be true even if {do na morsi}.
>
> {ko} and {do} are defined as follows:
> ko sumka'i le tersku noi le cusku cu minde ja cpedu le nu ke'a gasnu la'e le selsku
> do sumka'i le tersku
>
> The difference is only the part after {noi}, which adds the speaker's attitude of {minde ja cpedu}.
>
> "{ko} with {.e'o}" means therefore "{do} with the speaker's attitudes {minde ja cpedu} and {.e'o}". Because {.e'o} is an attitudinal of {cpedu}, it means "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {minde ja cpedu je cpedu}", which is equal to "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {cpedu}".

Logically thinking, I realized that {minde ja cpedu je cpedu} is not equal to {cpedu} but to {minde je cpedu ja cpedu}. I mean "(order OR request) AND request" is equal to "(order AND request) OR (request AND request)", or shortly "(order AND request) OR request".

 

> "{do} with {.e'o}" also means "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {cpedu}". 
> "{ko} with {.e'o}" and "{do} with {.e'o}" have therefore the same meaning.

Comparing {do .e'o}, {ko .e'o} and {ko},

{do .e'o} = "you with the speaker's attitude of request",

{ko .e'o} = "you with the speaker's attitude of ((order AND request) OR request)",

{ko} = "you with the speaker's attitude of (order OR request)".

I conclude that {do .e'o} means pure request only, while {ko .e'o} has broader meaning that may imply also "order AND request", and {ko} has still broader meaning that may imply also pure order.

I drew a Venn diagram on my conlclusion:

http://guskant.github.com/lojbo/mindecpedu.svg

 

{.e'u} is an attitudinal of {stidi}. "{ko} with {.e'u}" means, with the same procedure, "{do} with the speaker's attitudes of {minde ja cpedu je stidi}". On the other hand, "{do} with {.e'u}" means only "{do} with the speaker's attitude of {stidi}", which is clearly different from the meaning of "{ko} with {.e'u}". Both are acceptable, and the speaker needs to select one of them depending on one's attitude.

In my opinion, however, the definition of {ko} should include also the attitudes of {curmi}, {pacna}, {stidi}, {djica}, {bilga}, because imperative expressions in natural languages include them. If so, "{ko} with {.e'u}" and "{do} with {.e'u}" would have the same meaning.

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