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Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: {konju} and its place structure



On Thursday, June 12, 2014 11:41:13 PM UTC-4, Ross Ogilvie wrote:

Getting my math nerd on, there's no reason the region has to be connected, or has to be embedded in R^N for that matter, but the idea is right. The formal definition is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_%28topology%29.

Hats off to you, sir. That's the most general definition of a cone all right. I shied away from giving that one because it's mind-bending without a bit of a background in point-set topology. Also, it's homeomorphic to some things we would not consider cones if we saw them embedded in R^3--like the one with a cylindrical surface as its base, and the midpoint of its axis as the vertex.
 
If you wanted a predicate for a general cone like this, I'd go with: x1 is a cone with base x2 and vertex x3.

I would consider that to be more or less the ideal definition for {konju}. You can add an x4 to specify the material, but in that case it would create ambiguity whether we're talking about the mathematical abstraction of "cone," or simply a conical object. I guess we could say {konju da'i} for an abstract cone and {konju da'inai} for a conical object? I'm reaching here.

--Len

 
Obviously you could swap the last two places, but this way it's more compatible with the current konju and also allows you to easily specify the type of cone, eg
1) lo konju be lo cukla
a circular cone

2) lo konju be lo cibjgatai
a triangular pyramid

Compare also to {pirmidi}.

-- Ross


On 13 June 2014 00:06, <len.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
The definition more prevalent in higher math is: the object created by taking a connected region in N dimensions, and a point outside that region in N+1 dimensions, and including all lines between that point and any point in the region. I would consider that the "standard" definition. Both of yours are special cases where N=2 and the region is circular. Pyramids and ellipsoidal cones are also legit cones.


On Friday, May 23, 2014 4:00:01 PM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:
There are two main definitions of "cone":
1. (geometry) A surface of revolution formed by rotating a segment of a line around another line that intersects the first line.
2. (geometry) A solid of revolution formed by rotating a triangle around one of its altitudes.

I think neither meaning of "cone" reflects {konju}. I think {konju} describes a *segment* of a line (possibly infinite thus identical to a line in such case) revolving around another linear segment thus forming a *surface*. As for konju1 it describes an object (possibly immaterial) with *a property* of such cone-ness.

This explains why only vertex is specified. but konju2 seems to be superflous then since it is not always necessary.


2014-05-23 12:11 GMT+04:00 Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.com>:

The definition of {konju} is rather cryptic.

x1 is a cone [shape/form] of material x2 with vertex x3. Also ellipse, ellipsoid (= konclupa). See also jesni, djine, sovda, kojna, jganu.

either only the surface of an object made after the revolution of a triangle. That's why konju3 seems strange. Why only vertex is defined?

Definitely cone it's not an ellipse.

Could you please explain this?

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