Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Using "nu"

[Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>]

Senva is indeed the correct word here.  In "I have a dream" that's
really a [se] pacna.  A se senva is something that is basically a
story line in your head, whether true or false, typically not under
your conscious control.  A xanri is something that exists typically
only in the mind of someone, (despite the way it's written in gi'uste
which was done to avoid the le/lo problem pre-xorlo), although it may
be an ideal conception of a real thing, and can very easily be under
conscious control.
            --gejyspa

On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 3:14 AM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is {senva} the correct word here? To me, dream/reverie means something
> one would like to happen and ponders it, as in "I have a dream". The
> sleeping kind of dream I'd translate as {sipxanri}.
> The main problem here is that the gismu definitions are written in an
> ambiguous language, but synonyms in them are meant to disambiguate.
> You wouldn't call an animal {lo stela} if it's {lo pinpedi}. In my
> rarbau "sleeping dream" and "daydream/reverie" are completely
> different words.
> By the way, I've had a half-lucid dream this night. I started to fly
> and I knew that it's possible only in a dream, but I didn't care much.
> It was a good flight, even if I was mildly concious that somewhere
> else I lay on a bed.
>
> mu'o mi'e ianek
>
> On Jun 27, 8:43 am, Remo Dentato <rdent...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Ben Foppa <eatingstap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > melbi fa lonu lo senva cu sanji le sevzi
>>
>> > Aiming for "Self-aware dreams are beautiful", or, more precisely:
>> > "beautiful are dreams which are aware of the self".
>>
>> It seem to me: "the event of the dreamer being conscious of himself is
>> beautiful". In other words, you deem beautiful the fact that a dreamer
>> is (or can be) conscious of himself.
>>
>> If you meant, instead, that "lucid dreaming" is beautiful in itself, I
>> would go with: {lo nu sanji senva cu melbi}.
>>
>> If are the "dreams" that are beautiful, then you won't need {nu} at
>> all: {lo sanji selsne cu melbi}
>>
>> I think the tanru {sanji senva} ("x1 makes a conscious type of dream
>> about x2") renders "lucid dream" quite precisely as in lucid dreams
>> one is aware of the the fact that he is dreaming, not necessarily he
>> is aware of his ego.
>>
>> I still have a  problem with {melbi} since it is meant for aesthetic
>> judgment, I suspect that you meant "beautiful" in some other sense
>> (maybe {pluka}?) for which there's not a direct translation in Lojban.
>>
>> Note that dreams can't be aware of anything and they do not have a
>> "self". Only dreamers do.
>>
>> > 1. Is this correct? I'm a little confused as to how to turn "lo senva
>> > cu sanji le sevzi" into a sumti.
>>
>> It is grammatically correct but I don't think is what you meant. I'm
>> not sure why you want to convert it into a sumti but the easiest way
>> is probably to transform it in "the dreamer who is conscious of self"
>> -> {lo senva poi sanji le sevzi}
>>
>> > 2. I'm thinking that not using "fa" (i.e. "lonu lo senva cu sanji le
>> > sevzi cu melbi") wouldn't work, because it's sort of vague as to what
>> > the "nu" encompasses. Is this correct?
>>
>> Lojban grammar is never ambiguous. in you case is:
>>  { << lonu lo senva cu sanji le sevzi >> cu melbi}
>>
>> {nu} (and all the other abstractions} take an entire bridi so you
>> simply stop before the second {cu}.
>>
>> When you're in doubt, try to use jboski (or jbofihe) to check how the
>> sentence parses. Use the terminator {kei} to define where the
>> abstraction ends if the default rules give you something different
>> from what you want.
>>
>> > 3. Is my use of "lo" twice correct? How would meanings change if I
>> > used:
>>
>> {le} is specific in the sense that you're talking about a dream
>> (and/or dreamer) you have in mind (and possibly identified by the
>> context of what is being said).
>> {lo} is more generic but almost always correct. Stay with {lo} as much
>> as possible and you'll never be wrong :) (I still have problems
>> following this rule myself).
>>
>> Enjoy your holiday trip to Lojbanistan :)
>>
>> mu'o mi'e remod.
>
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